A year ago, I got my 8 y/o a landline (we used Ooma). It has been absolutely wonderful.
By far the best thing is that he makes his own playdates. I'm not the middleman anymore. He just makes plans and asks me if it's ok. And if his friend doesn't have a landline, I let him call their parent. It surprises them, but when he leaves a message, they love it. He's definitely had more time with friends because of it.
Another funny thing was he complained about writing a thank you note, so we said "OK, the alternative is that you have to call them". He called them, had a nice conversation, and thanked them. Honestly, it was better than a thank you note.
It's been one of the best purchases we're made. I feel some hope this will delay the eventual begging for a smart phone because he's able to do the most critical thing, connect with friends.
I bought two office phones for 30 euros each (Yealink) and set up a VOIP plan with voip.ms for my 8 and 9 YO kids.
I recently got divorced, so there is a phone at each house in case they want to reach out to the other parent directly. Ex and I did not want the kids to feel their right to reach the other parent needed to ask for permission
Family has Softphone in their mobiles, so the full family is a speed dial away.
My 9 and 12 year old share a "kid" phone that's just a hand-me-down parent phone. This partially meets that need, but it still gets used for way too much unsupervised YouTube time.
The thing for me that has really unlocked voice-based socializing has been the 12 year old jumping on Discord with his buddies from school. I feel like this mirrors well how I myself chat with my adult male friends—it's rarely in the context of just "a call" but rather while doing another activity. So when I see him joking around with them while they play Minecraft or whatever, that feels like it's a reasonable pattern for how to sustain friendships.
My kids are grown up, but my mom is worried about her AT&T service switching to VOIP. She didn't understand my description of Ooma, which I've been using for many years, but now I'm thinking that I should just bring over all the needed hardware and just call it a landline.
Make me really want to build one for my son when he gets to that age.
If I build it, I can control the full feature set and explain to him how it worked and he'll get the 'cool' factor too. With the raspberry pi I have lying around at home, it doesn't sound impossible!
Why does it seem like many parents are unaware that a hand me down iPhone can be heavily locked down with screen time settings? A list of things you can do:
- allowed list of apps, can reduce it to just phone, imessage, and utilities like weather app
- effectively permanent downtime, just set the end time less than start time such as 3:00 am to 2:59 am (technically 1 minute of non downtime). This blocks apps except for the allowed apps
- disable installing apps from app store
- disable adding new contacts and block calls and messages not in contact list. This allows parent to control who the phone can be used to contact
- none of these settings can be changed without the screen time pin
- also configure the phone with a minor apple account and add to your family group so you can monitor and control screen time settings from your phone.
So start with a super locked down phone that can only be used to communicate with parents. This is very helpful when they start after school sports. And the phone is so locked down they don't really have any interest in it.
Later when they're older start allowing communication with friends from school. But still only phone and imessage, no other apps. This reinforces that it's a communication device, not for endless scrolling and watching videos.
I was thinking of doing something like this for text with LoRa. But, having kids I don't have time to do that. This seems really great!
I read the previous discussion, oof:
S04dKHzrKT wrote
Make note of the privacy policy[1]. Some users may not like the data they collect.
> Information Collected from Children: As detailed in Section 3.C, we collect voice audio during calls, call log information, and utilize the Parent-provided contact list in relation to the Child's use of the Tin Can Device. We may also collect device identifiers and technical usage data related to the Service.
Off-topic, but I hate sites like this. All links in the article are for other pages on businessinsider.com, but there's no link to Tin Can, not that I can find at least.
It's getting more and more normal that sites won't link out of their own "property".
I "made" something like this 7-8 years ago for our first kid. When I say "made" I mean I bought a "fixed wireless terminal" for $40 on eBay, a classic landline phone for $30, and a cell phone subscription for kids ($5/month). Then I connected the parts, and voila, we had a landline for kids.
Obvious benefits include low cost, full interop with all other phones, and having the kids learn our phone numbers by heart after punching them many times.
Funny enough, China already ran this experiment. Kids' smartwatches started as call-only devices for safety. Then they added friend lists, status updates, like counts, popularity rankings. Little Genius now has 48% of the global kids' smartwatch market [1]. Kids delete real-life friends for not having enough likes on the watch. Once a device enters a kid's social life, there's no market incentive to keep it simple.
I'm a happy Tin Can customer. For young children (5 and 7 in my case) it's especially delightful to give them a measure of autonomy, at an age where they don't yet have a mobile phone. They get to call their friends and family on their own terms, without any safety or "screen time" concerns.
It's especially fun to watch them discover the very concept of a landline: the keypad (they thought it was a pin code); the dial tone; the memorizing and writing down of phone numbers.
> She said she heard about the Tin Can on a Facebook group.
Nice to safe the kids from that... But who will save the adults? ^^
Yes, social media is bad for kids. You start to realize that. It only took 15 years. The thing is: It's equally bad for you...
And you prove that every minute. Whenever you say something, and after three sentences, basically every topic ends up in something related to Instatoktube.
My only hope is that what we are currently see rising is similar to what happened to alcoholism and chain smoking.
We got one of these for our elementary-aged kids because it took off in our network of families at their school.
It’s so fun watching them talk to their buddies from school, planning play dates, just chitchatting etc. My favorite thing is when they prank call one another, cracks me up.
Maybe the novelty wears off soon but for at least the last month or so they’ve used it every day. It feels like it gives them a bit of autonomy they’re seeking right now at their ages, but in a relatively safe way.
We bought a Tincan after a company parent-erg conversation led to a coworker discussing her experience with the product.
Is it the game changer we thought it would be? No. We thought my daughter would want to call her friends as much as she wants us to call their friends' parents to have them come over. We thought my son would use it as much as he texts on his gizmo.
Having said this, they are getting experience, albeit infrequent, with saying "Hello.... I love you. Goodbye."
And, yeah, when it rings, there is a mad-dash to pick it up. There is something uniquely pre cell phone ("reminds me of the 80s") about the joy and wonder of "Who could be calling me (at this hour)?"
> Alarmingly, some Gen Zers don't say "hello" when they answer a phone call; they expect the caller to just start talking.
I'm an older Gen-X and I've stopped doing this unless I recognize the caller. I'm not going to give a scammer anything to build a voice print on. I also use the stock greeting for voicemail instead of a personal one.
For the nerdy who might want to set up their own similar system for their kids, and let their kids pick any landline phone they want, you can get an ATA (Analog Telephone Adapter) on eBay for cheap, then connect it to a Raspberry Pi with Asterisk, and any VOIP provider, to make your own PBX. (https://www.littlebytesofpi.com/raspberrypihomephone/)
Fun product, but not for me. We've given the kids old iPhones when they reached the age of 12 and they have been known we can check anything and everything on their phone. Each and every email is cc'ed to us and we log what we can (not that we actually do that much).
We have also told the kids we are not 24/7 actively monitoring them, because we woud like to trust them. Unless we think there's an issue they cannot, will not or are forced not to tell us, we will not intervene with their phone usually. They know we can track their phones anywhere on this planet and they don't care, because we are not acting as helicopter parents.
This has built trust between our kids and us parents. It forces us as parents to start trusting the kids and the kids get the freedom they want and need.
Is it 100% perfect? No, not by a long shot. It's a balance that may be scary for parents. We talk with them about stuff like doomscrolling, social media drama and privacy. They show us memes, tell us about their school life and usually do not care if we happen to see some private conversation on the corner of our eye.
Do the kids make mistakes? You bet. That's part of their life. Do we as parents make mistakes? Absolutely. None of the kids came with a manual. :)
If you live in Germany and have a Fritz!Box router, you can just buy a second old-ish Fritz!Box and a simple landline phone (from the likes of eBay, Kleinanzeigen...) and hook them up via WiFi.
Voilà, telephone service as it used to be. No proprietary payphone with questionable ToS and privacy policies needed.
"If parents consent [...] we collect [...] serial number and battery level [...] who called and call time and length [...] and Voicemails (messages and greetings)"
If you're going to get this product, make sure you pay attention when you set it up, and opt out if you are privacy minded.
I am working on a similar project. I have something working for my own needs and a few other families already but a long road to go before making something GA.
There were three major things I wanted to do differently from Tin Can:
- I wanted to use off the shelf VOIP hardware so if the company ever went out of business I (and any of my users) had an escape valve or could just sell the hardware.
- I wanted to have a code base I could open source. (not open source, yet!)
- I wanted flexibility to offer ATAs (devices that let you connect any ol' "analog" phone)- some of my parent friends wanted cordless "DACT" phones, interestingly.
It has been quite an adventure entering the world of VOIP.
The SIP protocol has so many esoteric options (understandably given its history!) it could make TLS look simple.
My most recent learning is this crazy protocol called TR-069 that ISPs use to configure endpoint hardware like home routers, cable modems, and VOIP phones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069
Also, interestingly every cheap (sub-$50) phone and ATA I have tried has a built-in OpenVPN clients.
Oh, and one more interesting thing Grandstream ATAs are able to be taken over by the Grandstream cloud service by just providing the ATA serial number and mac address on the back of the device- I did not love that workflow when considering long-term security. (:
If you have $50 and some time to kill you can do it all yourself right now. In voip.ms you can use the phone book and the caller id filter to create a "*" hang-up rule and an "allow phone book" rule.
2. properly set smartphone which can be used as dumb phone with restricted contacts and no app install allowed, apps screen time limited to zero or heck even browser disabled in guest profile
3. kids smartwatch with parental controls which limit who they can call and who can call and message them, I'm just working on one of these and it's great even for seniors
If you don't like kid having wearable with them I have shocking news for you - you can leave all of the above at home!
Btw. kids nowadays don't really call each other, they text (IM) each other. And for the record I am one of those few parents who didn't give phone/tablet to their toddlers hands like majority of people do wheever they are (public transport, car, waiting room, etc.), my older elementary school kid has "dumb" phone (my old Symbian Nokia, but he use it only for calls/SMS anyway, though I will probably switch to restricted smartphone since it's inconvenient even for me not being able to send whatsapp message, battery is crap and classmates have whatsapp as well), my younger elementary school kid doesn't have anything, but when she goes outside alone she takes Motorola walkie talkie with roughly 0.5-1km range in city.
edit: related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
People can call each other but also businesses have 4-digit phone numbers that are shortened versions of the business name, like GUIT for the guitar shop.
I'm not sure if they're still available, but the PAP2T was a wonderful piece of kit - just an ethernet port and 2x RJ-45 jacks for old style phones. You can set up custom dial plans and use any VOIP SIP provider you like. You can trivially edit the dial plan to restrict certain number prefixes, and set up custom short numbers - so for instance my "landline" had 81 for my mum, 82 for brother, 83 for sister, etc. but you could also just dial regular numbers.
If you run an asterisk server on your own box, you could easily set up a private SIP network just for you and your kids, or your kids and their friends, etc. and either run a SIP client on your mobile for your use and a VOIP SIP gateway if you want your kid to be able to call a friend's mobile.
EDIT: I just looked and the PAP2T has been discontinued, but there seem to be lots of units available new from China that look identical and are sold as Linksys PAP2T, and some unbranded units that look the same but with blank labels. I've no idea if these are fully compatible with the real PAP2T, but they might still be worth trying.
Wonderful idea. The kid can call their friend "Let's meet outside". Then they go outside and (must) leave the phone at home. They use the phone to organize no-phone time together. Might be good for adults too.
For instance my boss couldn't call me while I'm out and about. What you expect me to carry my landline with me?
Just got our Tin Can a few weeks ago. The hardware is "eh", but the service is pretty great. The ability to approve incoming/outgoing numbers before being able to call/receive calls is very handy to cut out any spam calls that you'd get with a normal land line.
Seems like there are a bunch of alternatives popping up including some DIY solutions. Which is really awesome in this space. Check out https://www.beanstalk.club/ I've done some work with these folks. I love their bring-your-own-phone approach. There are so many cool old-school phones out there, even on ebay. We've also seen lots of success with Beanstalk and a simple $20 cordless phone. Kids love wandering around chit-chatting. There's also a ton of momentum around the https://www.waituntil8th.org/ pledge.
I like the idea. We tried with licence free walkie talkies, but it did not catch on. What it worked is the xplora watches. Only approved contacts and we can also contact our kids and check GPS position . They are a bit buggy sometimes but mostly fine
Did this exact thing for my four and six-year-old kids. I used an Ooma Telo Air[1] (Free + ~$6/mo in taxes and fees) and an old vTech landline phone. It's been highly successful in our house. The kids have (monitored) independence to call grandparents and aunts/uncles. Watching them translate written down 10-digit phone numbers into button presses is fun too.
252 comments
By far the best thing is that he makes his own playdates. I'm not the middleman anymore. He just makes plans and asks me if it's ok. And if his friend doesn't have a landline, I let him call their parent. It surprises them, but when he leaves a message, they love it. He's definitely had more time with friends because of it.
Another funny thing was he complained about writing a thank you note, so we said "OK, the alternative is that you have to call them". He called them, had a nice conversation, and thanked them. Honestly, it was better than a thank you note.
It's been one of the best purchases we're made. I feel some hope this will delay the eventual begging for a smart phone because he's able to do the most critical thing, connect with friends.
I recently got divorced, so there is a phone at each house in case they want to reach out to the other parent directly. Ex and I did not want the kids to feel their right to reach the other parent needed to ask for permission
Family has Softphone in their mobiles, so the full family is a speed dial away.
I also whitelist numbers they can dial out.
So far it’s working like a charm, they love it.
The thing for me that has really unlocked voice-based socializing has been the 12 year old jumping on Discord with his buddies from school. I feel like this mirrors well how I myself chat with my adult male friends—it's rarely in the context of just "a call" but rather while doing another activity. So when I see him joking around with them while they play Minecraft or whatever, that feels like it's a reasonable pattern for how to sustain friendships.
e.g. corded phone -> cordless phone -> mobile phone -> smartphone
or
records -> tape -> CD -> MP3 -> cloud
or
Atari -> NES -> SNES -> N64 -> Gamecube -> Wii -> Switch 2
If I build it, I can control the full feature set and explain to him how it worked and he'll get the 'cool' factor too. With the raspberry pi I have lying around at home, it doesn't sound impossible!
- allowed list of apps, can reduce it to just phone, imessage, and utilities like weather app
- effectively permanent downtime, just set the end time less than start time such as 3:00 am to 2:59 am (technically 1 minute of non downtime). This blocks apps except for the allowed apps
- disable installing apps from app store
- disable adding new contacts and block calls and messages not in contact list. This allows parent to control who the phone can be used to contact
- none of these settings can be changed without the screen time pin
- also configure the phone with a minor apple account and add to your family group so you can monitor and control screen time settings from your phone.
So start with a super locked down phone that can only be used to communicate with parents. This is very helpful when they start after school sports. And the phone is so locked down they don't really have any interest in it.
Later when they're older start allowing communication with friends from school. But still only phone and imessage, no other apps. This reinforces that it's a communication device, not for endless scrolling and watching videos.
I read the previous discussion, oof:
S04dKHzrKT wrote
Make note of the privacy policy[1]. Some users may not like the data they collect. > Information Collected from Children: As detailed in Section 3.C, we collect voice audio during calls, call log information, and utilize the Parent-provided contact list in relation to the Child's use of the Tin Can Device. We may also collect device identifiers and technical usage data related to the Service.
[1]: https://tincan.kids/policies/privacy-policy
It's getting more and more normal that sites won't link out of their own "property".
Obvious benefits include low cost, full interop with all other phones, and having the kids learn our phone numbers by heart after punching them many times.
[1] https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-trends/article/3328227/move-o...
It's especially fun to watch them discover the very concept of a landline: the keypad (they thought it was a pin code); the dial tone; the memorizing and writing down of phone numbers.
5/5 highly recommended.
> She said she heard about the Tin Can on a Facebook group.
Nice to safe the kids from that... But who will save the adults? ^^
Yes, social media is bad for kids. You start to realize that. It only took 15 years. The thing is: It's equally bad for you...
And you prove that every minute. Whenever you say something, and after three sentences, basically every topic ends up in something related to Instatoktube.
My only hope is that what we are currently see rising is similar to what happened to alcoholism and chain smoking.
It’s so fun watching them talk to their buddies from school, planning play dates, just chitchatting etc. My favorite thing is when they prank call one another, cracks me up.
Maybe the novelty wears off soon but for at least the last month or so they’ve used it every day. It feels like it gives them a bit of autonomy they’re seeking right now at their ages, but in a relatively safe way.
Highly recommend it.
Is it the game changer we thought it would be? No. We thought my daughter would want to call her friends as much as she wants us to call their friends' parents to have them come over. We thought my son would use it as much as he texts on his gizmo.
Having said this, they are getting experience, albeit infrequent, with saying "Hello.... I love you. Goodbye."
And, yeah, when it rings, there is a mad-dash to pick it up. There is something uniquely pre cell phone ("reminds me of the 80s") about the joy and wonder of "Who could be calling me (at this hour)?"
> Alarmingly, some Gen Zers don't say "hello" when they answer a phone call; they expect the caller to just start talking.
I'm an older Gen-X and I've stopped doing this unless I recognize the caller. I'm not going to give a scammer anything to build a voice print on. I also use the stock greeting for voicemail instead of a personal one.
Shameless plug: I started my own service without vendor hardware lock in.
https://chatterboxphone.com
I based it on the instructions provided by this Show HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39801991
We have also told the kids we are not 24/7 actively monitoring them, because we woud like to trust them. Unless we think there's an issue they cannot, will not or are forced not to tell us, we will not intervene with their phone usually. They know we can track their phones anywhere on this planet and they don't care, because we are not acting as helicopter parents.
This has built trust between our kids and us parents. It forces us as parents to start trusting the kids and the kids get the freedom they want and need.
Is it 100% perfect? No, not by a long shot. It's a balance that may be scary for parents. We talk with them about stuff like doomscrolling, social media drama and privacy. They show us memes, tell us about their school life and usually do not care if we happen to see some private conversation on the corner of our eye.
Do the kids make mistakes? You bet. That's part of their life. Do we as parents make mistakes? Absolutely. None of the kids came with a manual. :)
Voilà, telephone service as it used to be. No proprietary payphone with questionable ToS and privacy policies needed.
If you're going to get this product, make sure you pay attention when you set it up, and opt out if you are privacy minded.
You can waitlist at https://havenphone.com if you are interested.
There were three major things I wanted to do differently from Tin Can:
- I wanted to use off the shelf VOIP hardware so if the company ever went out of business I (and any of my users) had an escape valve or could just sell the hardware.
- I wanted to have a code base I could open source. (not open source, yet!)
- I wanted flexibility to offer ATAs (devices that let you connect any ol' "analog" phone)- some of my parent friends wanted cordless "DACT" phones, interestingly.
It has been quite an adventure entering the world of VOIP.
The SIP protocol has so many esoteric options (understandably given its history!) it could make TLS look simple.
My most recent learning is this crazy protocol called TR-069 that ISPs use to configure endpoint hardware like home routers, cable modems, and VOIP phones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069
Also, interestingly every cheap (sub-$50) phone and ATA I have tried has a built-in OpenVPN clients.
Oh, and one more interesting thing Grandstream ATAs are able to be taken over by the Grandstream cloud service by just providing the ATA serial number and mac address on the back of the device- I did not love that workflow when considering long-term security. (:
If you have $50 and some time to kill you can do it all yourself right now. In voip.ms you can use the phone book and the caller id filter to create a "*" hang-up rule and an "allow phone book" rule.
- https://major.io/p/85-cents-home-phone/
- https://www.voipsupply.com/fanvil-h3w-wifi-hotel-ip-phone-wh...
- https://www.voipsupply.com/fanvil-h2u-black-hotel-phone-v2
- https://www.voipsupply.com/grandstream-ht801-v2-ata
1. dumb phone with fixed dial contacts
2. properly set smartphone which can be used as dumb phone with restricted contacts and no app install allowed, apps screen time limited to zero or heck even browser disabled in guest profile
3. kids smartwatch with parental controls which limit who they can call and who can call and message them, I'm just working on one of these and it's great even for seniors
If you don't like kid having wearable with them I have shocking news for you - you can leave all of the above at home!
Btw. kids nowadays don't really call each other, they text (IM) each other. And for the record I am one of those few parents who didn't give phone/tablet to their toddlers hands like majority of people do wheever they are (public transport, car, waiting room, etc.), my older elementary school kid has "dumb" phone (my old Symbian Nokia, but he use it only for calls/SMS anyway, though I will probably switch to restricted smartphone since it's inconvenient even for me not being able to send whatsapp message, battery is crap and classmates have whatsapp as well), my younger elementary school kid doesn't have anything, but when she goes outside alone she takes Motorola walkie talkie with roughly 0.5-1km range in city.
edit: related call scene from Fight Club how Tyler properly answers the phone (not answering but calling back and his first response is "Who is this?"):
https://youtu.be/tlw677Une_Q?si=xj3Sce9RdQ-_UfZP&t=85
https://youtu.be/UhVi3smmvTs?si=ow6zw_xTKo22WpLZ
People can call each other but also businesses have 4-digit phone numbers that are shortened versions of the business name, like GUIT for the guitar shop.
If you run an asterisk server on your own box, you could easily set up a private SIP network just for you and your kids, or your kids and their friends, etc. and either run a SIP client on your mobile for your use and a VOIP SIP gateway if you want your kid to be able to call a friend's mobile.
EDIT: I just looked and the PAP2T has been discontinued, but there seem to be lots of units available new from China that look identical and are sold as Linksys PAP2T, and some unbranded units that look the same but with blank labels. I've no idea if these are fully compatible with the real PAP2T, but they might still be worth trying.
For instance my boss couldn't call me while I'm out and about. What you expect me to carry my landline with me?
> There's also a free plan where Tin Can users can call only other Tin Can users.
So you have to pay a monthly subscription for this, in addition to $75 for each phone, if you want to talk with anyone outside of their walled garden?
1. https://www.ooma.com/home-phone-service/basic/
> playdate
When I was a boy, there was no such word "playdate". What I'd do is just walk or ride my bike to a friend's house and knock on the door.
No parents involved.