It's a very small concession. The high initial friction still means when someone comes to me with a problem and I tell them the solution is in F-Droid, they have to wait a day. Most give up and pick a different, less trustworthy solution from Google Play.
Incredibly small concession that doesn’t warrant this article’s absolutely insane framing: “Even less of a problem than we thought,” “very, very good news,” “already sounded perfectly manageable.”
The author is so giddy to defend this monopolistic restriction on Google’s part. Hackers can use F-Droid without annoyance, but this really does kill any chance at normies using it. They absolutely will use the worst spyware on Google Play instead, and the author seemingly loves it.
"On our own terms", as long as it's approved by Google,.. for now. Surely we bear no resemblance to frogs in warming water, and we do not find ourselves praying that the deal is not further altered.
Given the Epic settlement means Google is allowing alternate app stores, and also the delay only applies for unregistered developers, I'm not certain it won't actually get easier to get folk set up on F-Droid.
It still remains to be seen what the actual requirements are, and even if F-Droid could become "approved" that doesn't mean they want to. Time will tell.
"only applies for unregistered developers" but remember the whole point is to allow Google to pull your "registered developer" status on a whim. Something they've shown over and over again they cannot be trusted with
Why the hell should we "mother may I" with Google for running apps on our own phones if it isn't sourced from the Play Store?
The "security" rationale is horseshit given just how much malware is readily download able on the Play Store. Google never cleans its own house before going after others.
Singapore is not big enough to dictate terms to Google. If Singapore wanted this change and Google didn't, Singapore's most extreme option would be to ban the import of standard Android phones to a market of a few million people.
The scammers are often in a very different country than the victim. Finding the scammer is only 50% of the work, the other 50% is diplomacy and hoping the other side is willing to extradite. This is not made easier if the police force in the scammer's country is extremely corrupt.
This is why those scams so often rely on gift cards (or sometimes on cash which a local mule converts to crypto).
The scams are likely to some from outside Play. In the US, these scams don't run because iPhone is the dominant platform and side loading in iOS is not possible. In the rest of world they are widespread.
"Likely"? Do you mean that based on actual data, or are you using it as a weasel word so you can present whatever convenient "facts" that benefit Google as truth?
I’m betting on the latter. No Kitboga video mentions custom Android apps. What actually appears on almost all videos are online ads/spam or fake celebrity accounts messaging random people on Facebook.
It's funny how you aggressively push solutions that ignore the most common scam vectors investigators encounter. Could it be a coincidence that your proposal conveniently places every aspect of people’s lives at the mercy of big businesses? Or that the scam vector you downplay, ads and social media, just happens to be cash cows for some of the richest companies in history?
We already have plenty of paid lobbyists cheering the transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest. There's no need to do that dirty work for free. Weaponizing the elderly being scammed of their life savings while protecting those that benefit from it is beyond messed up.
The scams that are happening in the rest of world are calls posing as bank support about urgent security issues and telling people to install apps to protect their accounts.
Absolutely! Never had one problem with apps on FDroid. Not even when tbe Simple Mobile Tools suite was sold to a shady company without a heads up to its users. And that safety isn't an accident.
The rationale behind this move makes no sense either - most of the scams happen via some instruction to install Anydesk or some such remote-support software, not some shady apkg downloaded from some third party website.
Seems like a move to get around the Epic Games ruling (and assorted rumbles from countries like India).
Not to mention that the "concession", such that it is, will presumably only work if you sign into a Google account. Presumably, this will require that you have Google Play Services installed.
Of course, many people who want to de-Google their phones won't want to do either. This is an attack on people who want to keep their lives separate from Google.
I'm biased, but I don't think less trustworthy is a fair assessment. I think you can suggest that open source software provides a different trust model than closed source and distributed by Play, but to conclude it's less trustworthy is a real stretch.
We hereby grant you a conditional right to install software on the device you "own", subject to conditions, and terms, but only under certain circumstances and only so long as it pleases us.
What's the phone OS landscape now? What can someone who values their agency and wants FOSS choose?
* iOS - walled garden, so no
* Android:
* * with a Google account and Play Services - a bit less of a walled garden, but still no
* * Android without Google:
* * * GrapheneOS - root or adb not supported, so no
* * * LineageOS - (edit: root or adb not supported, so no - just learned) seems like a viable option although it seems like it depends on Google's development of Android and keeping it FOSS. How's the situation with security updates? Which phones would you recommend? I don't count Samsung or whatever crap as they're generally quite user-hostile.
* Linux - IIRC only PMOS supported FDE. Is that still the case? Are there are good Linux phones? I tried PinePhone a few years ago, but it was crappy. The OS also lacked basic features like new windows showing up inside the screen.
None of the comments here seem to discuss or even mention how this situation looks from googles perspective? I feel like HN readers are not aware of the scale of the problem they face or their motivation behind these changes.
If you look at the rate of growth of the call/text scam industry I think it's entirely possible that android owners are getting scammed out of more money than google themselves makes on the android platform as a whole. It's at least not that far off. Which doesn't even account for the humanitarian issues which they probably feel partially responsible for.
Two steps forwards and one step backwards in the never-ending march to dytopia and you celebrate it as a show of your generosity and benevolence! I don't know who you're trying to fool. But I'm certainly interested in finding out, because that person must be both naïve and incredibly powerful if you think that it's worthwhile to pull off a public charade like this.
I thought that even after the 24h wait, you will have to go through some annoying dialog to install (or maybe even update) anything not from the play store. So installing from F-droid will become an obnoxious process. Even worse if updates also become obnoxious. F-droid often wants to update several apps at once, so I click "update all". If that becomes multiple dialogs, that sucks.
The first thing I do with any new phone is to enable developer mode. If it is weekend, I will use adb to sideload, if not, I will do it in next weekend as I don't have much time at workdays. In any case the sideloading will be done on the same day as now. Problem solved.
> ADB would be unaffected, and any power users who needed to install an app straight away could always connect their Android device to a computer and use ADB commands to manually install - no delay at all.
So in practice this won't be an issue for anyone tech-savvy who uses their Android device with apps outside of the Play Store, as they can simply install through the ADB mechanism via a separate device. It can even be done using WebUSB.
However, the many, many people worldwide who lack such technical knowledge, and are more susceptible to being scammed via malicious app installs because of it, are still protected by this new process Google are introducing.
One thing I've never been able to understand about this new sideload "flow" is whether it will be applied to older devices, or just from some (future or recent) version of Android. Does anyone know?
Guggle et all, are starting to panick, as the whole adversurvielance scam is unraveling, there is NO concievable end game.
The surviving frogs, having been cooked en mass are getting ready to spontainiously evolve, AI is destroying vulnerable peoples ability to make descisions and the knock on effects as basic infrastucture erodes while costs spiral and actual knowledge is lost, but AI will be cheering them on by telling them walking and chewing gum are seperate activities that should be scheduled sequentialy after rest periods.
Google is going to keep tweaking this because they have two conflicting goals. They want to cut off alternative app stores where they don't get their 30% cut, and they absolutely do not want to push people to other operating systems like graphene etc. They need it to be very high friction to accomplish the former, but if they make it too high-friction they'll trigger the latter. It's a catch-22, and they're going to dither in an infinite loop.
How will the transfer occur? I'm assuming via Google account?
So this is vendor lock-in to an online account being sold as a way to "win" against a problem _created_ by said vendor? I would prefer a per-device wait time and I sincerely hope a Google account will not be a hard requirement. I didn't consider this initially.
Google is in the process of stealing the shirts from our backs and selling them back to us. Whoever wrote this article is drinking the kool-aid. This should NOT be presented as a positive thing. Some of us use Android without a Google account and would still like to sideload.
How is that setting supposed to carry over if I don't even have a Google account on my phone?
And even if I disregard that for a moment, what's up with the author being a mouthpiece for Google?
> Google's latest concession makes the sideloading controversy a big nothingburger
> Opting out is going to be even less of a problem than we thought
> This afternoon, Google’s Matthew Forsythe shares some answers to questions he’s gotten about the minutiae of how this process all works — and he’s got some very, *very* good news for us.
(emphasis theirs)
> Doing that once with every new phone already sounded perfectly manageable. But now Google clarifies that even that won’t be necessary, with the opt-out able to be transferred as we upgrade phones. That is maybe just the best news we could have gotten here, and hopefully it’s enough to calm everyone down about the sideloading-sky falling.
You still seem to need a Google account to be able to use the hardware you just paid for. I don't have one, don't want one either. I've been using Android without Google for about 15 years now but will hold off on getting a new device until I'm sure I can continue using it without getting a Google account.
this is awesome! because i get a new phone every week, this will save me so much time.
WAT? how is that even better than the ability to skip the wait time?
you are right, i am not seriously bothered by the wait time, i'd just activate it on a new phone, wait a day and be done with it. i have had to wait two weeks to unlock a xiaomi phone, so this is not that of a big deal. (besides i am not going to be affected anyways because i use a custom rom, but that's besides the point. let's assume i will be affected)
who changes their phone so often that being able to carry over the setting to skip the wait is a win?
i am embarrassed that i fell for this article, believing that there would actually be a genuine improvement to sideloading.
Maybe Im a conspiracist but it seems there is a recent concerted effort to lock OS platforms down.
Just last week apple added an age verification system to uk iPhones. No legal req. as far as I can tell
I’m only marginally aware of how these systems work, can someone more knowledgeable tell me the difference between Google’s implementation of this restriction and the restrictions already present on GrapheneOS? Is it correct to say that both are implemented for security reasons?
> Google's latest concession makes the sideloading controversy a big nothingburger
Ah yes, having to now send in a government ID to publish apps on the Play Store is a "big nothingburger". Kindly piss off, megacorp bootlicker Stephen Schenck.
I despise how this incredibly user-hostile move is spun in the title: "Google just gave Android power users a huge sideloading win", as if it was a good thing that Google did for some portion of its users. That's such a blatant, incredibly damaging lie, on all levels, that it's probably called journalism at this point.
"Just log into our online account" is not a concession at all. This sideloading drama is laughable anyways since the bigger issue should be there rootkit access and appstore monopoly.
WTF win? Sounds like I will need a tracking google account because it can "carry over" when I "upgrade my phone"
"Google giving a concession" is no win.
WTF Concession? Why are we asking google for permission to use the devices we bought as they see fit?
Ok, google is doing what is best for them, abusing users. But the manufacturers are really to blame here because the devices are by default locked to what google and them decide. There is no Market Choice here.
How long before there is a "we've detected your account has been used multiple times to re-setup a phone.. we've re-enabled the Google Nanny Safety mode.. also we've locked your google account just in case.. "
I mean other than hackers, who has needed to factory reset their phone more than once in a year you must be doing something shady... right right?
What is this steaming pile of shit? Android and Google are bending their customers over a table and ramming it into their asses.
If a device doesn't allow the user full control, then it isn't your device.
You are renting it from a duopoly that will bend over backwards to give all your data to the government! Also selling it to other corporations.
It is no excuse that an extremely small amount of ancient people over 85 who have never used technology in their life got scammed by some foreigner who worked them over for a full day or two.
That will happen regardless of whatever immoral restrictions are placed on our devices.
If you aren't smart enough to use the tech, don't use it.
240 comments
The author is so giddy to defend this monopolistic restriction on Google’s part. Hackers can use F-Droid without annoyance, but this really does kill any chance at normies using it. They absolutely will use the worst spyware on Google Play instead, and the author seemingly loves it.
It still remains to be seen what the actual requirements are, and even if F-Droid could become "approved" that doesn't mean they want to. Time will tell.
The "security" rationale is horseshit given just how much malware is readily download able on the Play Store. Google never cleans its own house before going after others.
(Allegedly the main actor behind this push is Singapore)
This is why those scams so often rely on gift cards (or sometimes on cash which a local mule converts to crypto).
Maybe you have the criminal idea of installing an adblocker, for example.
That is not allowed since corporations need to make money.
The government and ad networks need to track you for your benefit.
Ads are needed before listening to each minute of a song.
You must submit to crpyto miners running in the background from the ads, increasing your electricity bill and pollution.
Only USA sanctioned and approved ads are allowed, also. We wouldn't want you seeing an ad from a competing entity, right?
If you install an ablocker, you are a terrorist and broke 324582 American laws.
I’m betting on the latter. No Kitboga video mentions custom Android apps. What actually appears on almost all videos are online ads/spam or fake celebrity accounts messaging random people on Facebook.
It's funny how you aggressively push solutions that ignore the most common scam vectors investigators encounter. Could it be a coincidence that your proposal conveniently places every aspect of people’s lives at the mercy of big businesses? Or that the scam vector you downplay, ads and social media, just happens to be cash cows for some of the richest companies in history?
We already have plenty of paid lobbyists cheering the transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest. There's no need to do that dirty work for free. Weaponizing the elderly being scammed of their life savings while protecting those that benefit from it is beyond messed up.
Basically, Google needs an answer when men in suits ask them why they have technology that enables users to install sanctioned Iranian banking apps.
Seems like a move to get around the Epic Games ruling (and assorted rumbles from countries like India).
Of course, many people who want to de-Google their phones won't want to do either. This is an attack on people who want to keep their lives separate from Google.
> have to wait a day
The horrors!
Modern handheld computing is such a shitshow...
* iOS - walled garden, so no
* Android:
* * with a Google account and Play Services - a bit less of a walled garden, but still no
* * Android without Google:
* * * GrapheneOS - root or adb not supported, so no
* * * LineageOS - (edit: root or adb not supported, so no - just learned) seems like a viable option although it seems like it depends on Google's development of Android and keeping it FOSS. How's the situation with security updates? Which phones would you recommend? I don't count Samsung or whatever crap as they're generally quite user-hostile.
* Linux - IIRC only PMOS supported FDE. Is that still the case? Are there are good Linux phones? I tried PinePhone a few years ago, but it was crappy. The OS also lacked basic features like new windows showing up inside the screen.
* anything else?
If you look at the rate of growth of the call/text scam industry I think it's entirely possible that android owners are getting scammed out of more money than google themselves makes on the android platform as a whole. It's at least not that far off. Which doesn't even account for the humanitarian issues which they probably feel partially responsible for.
> Google’s been working hard to relive everyone’s fears...
> ADB would be unaffected, and any power users who needed to install an app straight away could always connect their Android device to a computer and use ADB commands to manually install - no delay at all.
So in practice this won't be an issue for anyone tech-savvy who uses their Android device with apps outside of the Play Store, as they can simply install through the ADB mechanism via a separate device. It can even be done using WebUSB.
However, the many, many people worldwide who lack such technical knowledge, and are more susceptible to being scammed via malicious app installs because of it, are still protected by this new process Google are introducing.
So this is vendor lock-in to an online account being sold as a way to "win" against a problem _created_ by said vendor? I would prefer a per-device wait time and I sincerely hope a Google account will not be a hard requirement. I didn't consider this initially.
Google is in the process of stealing the shirts from our backs and selling them back to us. Whoever wrote this article is drinking the kool-aid. This should NOT be presented as a positive thing. Some of us use Android without a Google account and would still like to sideload.
And even if I disregard that for a moment, what's up with the author being a mouthpiece for Google?
> Google's latest concession makes the sideloading controversy a big nothingburger
> Opting out is going to be even less of a problem than we thought
> This afternoon, Google’s Matthew Forsythe shares some answers to questions he’s gotten about the minutiae of how this process all works — and he’s got some very, *very* good news for us.
(emphasis theirs)
> Doing that once with every new phone already sounded perfectly manageable. But now Google clarifies that even that won’t be necessary, with the opt-out able to be transferred as we upgrade phones. That is maybe just the best news we could have gotten here, and hopefully it’s enough to calm everyone down about the sideloading-sky falling.
WAT? how is that even better than the ability to skip the wait time?
you are right, i am not seriously bothered by the wait time, i'd just activate it on a new phone, wait a day and be done with it. i have had to wait two weeks to unlock a xiaomi phone, so this is not that of a big deal. (besides i am not going to be affected anyways because i use a custom rom, but that's besides the point. let's assume i will be affected)
who changes their phone so often that being able to carry over the setting to skip the wait is a win?
i am embarrassed that i fell for this article, believing that there would actually be a genuine improvement to sideloading.
> Google's latest concession makes the sideloading controversy a big nothingburger
Ah yes, having to now send in a government ID to publish apps on the Play Store is a "big nothingburger". Kindly piss off, megacorp bootlicker Stephen Schenck.
> Google's latest concession makes the sideloading controversy a big nothingburger.
It's really not. Try to realise that it's not meant to be Google's phone and they shouldn't be "letting" me do things
WTF Concession? Why are we asking google for permission to use the devices we bought as they see fit?
Ok, google is doing what is best for them, abusing users. But the manufacturers are really to blame here because the devices are by default locked to what google and them decide. There is no Market Choice here.
step 2: make situation tiiiny amount better
step 3: proclaim this as "a win"
...really?
Not even a small fraction of a percentage of scams come from installing software normally, but only from Google Play store.
If a device doesn't allow the user full control, then it isn't your device.
You are renting it from a duopoly that will bend over backwards to give all your data to the government! Also selling it to other corporations.
It is no excuse that an extremely small amount of ancient people over 85 who have never used technology in their life got scammed by some foreigner who worked them over for a full day or two.
That will happen regardless of whatever immoral restrictions are placed on our devices.
If you aren't smart enough to use the tech, don't use it.