Finnish sauna heat exposure induces stronger immune cell than cytokine responses (tandfonline.com)

by Growtika 284 comments 386 points
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284 comments

[−] csr86 40d ago
In Finland we have old saying: "If liquor, tar and sauna won’t help, an illness is fatal"
[−] pimeys 40d ago
I would say booze rather than liquor. Liquor sounds too fancy.
[−] yeah879846 39d ago
It's call alcohol
[−] KellyCriterion 40d ago
Is it true that new houses are constructed/architectured as "sauna first" and then everything else is planned around the sauna?

or is that just an urban legend claim?

[−] silvertaza 40d ago
Not around the sauna per se, but sauna is often built first because it serves as a place to live while you're building the house!
[−] mesrik 40d ago
Yes, that it was especially rural environments and not having much options otherwise to live around while building.

Sauna that was built then wasn't just one hot room, but it also had at minimum small changing room dressing/undressing, relaxing between turns in steam room. Also if it was first building made then adding also lounge which served as living space with beds and cooking stove while building house was common. With sauna you had place to stay warm first winter, able to get warm water, wash clothes, yourselves and even a give birth old times. Building sauna first made lot of sense.

These days sauna for home builders is more about getting sauna somewhere in that floorplan where works well for the intended users of that house.

[−] fsckboy 40d ago

>

sauna is often built first because it serves as a place to live while you're building the house

wouldn't a kitchen accomplish that goal better?

[−] wolfpack_mick 40d ago
Due to lack of running water in those times (and still in many cottages) cooking is done above a fire, water is brought from the lake. A kitchen won't serve you well if you're just trying to get through a long winter of -30c.
[−] aaztehcy 40d ago
[flagged]
[−] oldestofsports 40d ago
The sauna provides heating.
[−] vixen99 39d ago
Average yearly temperature in Finland is reported as 6.5 Celsius
[−] ascii0eks84 40d ago
While it's true something like 90% of the accomodation have a sauna it's not like everything is planned around it. It's more like that it's the ONLY well soundproofed space, with nice atmosphere, that makes life enjoyable when your neighbors suck.
[−] jedberg 40d ago
I have no idea if that claim is true, but what I did love about visiting Finland was the even the small apartment I rented had a sauna in it! It seems like it's a non-negotiable for even the smallest accommodations.
[−] weberer 40d ago
The cheaper apartments tend to not have private saunas built into the bathroom, but most apartment complexes at least have a shared sauna on the top floor. Residents can book a block of personal time in advance.
[−] httpsterio 39d ago
In most buildings the shared sauna is on the first floor (basement) and not top.
[−] euroderf 39d ago
Also there can be blocks of time regularly scheduled, for example on weekends.
[−] nextos 40d ago
Even small brand new apartments tend to have their own sauna, which is quite impressive.
[−] incognito_robot 40d ago
Trust your instincts.
[−] Tommix11 39d ago
The tar ointment I bought in Mariehamn is fantastic for healing small infected cuts and bruises. Highly recommend.
[−] brightball 40d ago
Tar?
[−] csr86 40d ago
"Tar, acclaimed to have been formed from the sweat of Väinämöinen, a central character from the Finnish national epic Kalevala, was an important medicament to the former-day Finns. Tar actually did bear antiseptic features, which worked as a cure for infections. Lately tar has been recognised to include parts that can cause cancer, and the European Union has urged that its use should be avoided." [1]

I personally dont know how tar was used for health, but it was big export item of Finland during medieval times.

[1]https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/health-a-wellbein...

[−] xattt 40d ago
Vishnevski’s Liniment, which contains birch tar, was a common treatment for wound infections and burns in the Soviet bloc. However, this was something that individuals used because there was nothing else at hand.

Now, there are things like Fucidin, Polysporin and silver ointment for infected wounds and burns, respectively, that are safer and more effective.

Some people still swear by it, because “tradition” and probably some element of malignant patriotism too.

[−] anjel 40d ago
Tar based, (anti)Dandruff Shampoo is still a thing
[−] BobbyTables2 40d ago
Yeah, works great but may cause cancer…
[−] euroderf 39d ago
It is great stuff, I use it regularly. It makes my grey hair go all frizzy and flyaway, so that is a plus.
[−] throwup238 40d ago
I only know how it’s used for psoriasis as part of the Goeckerman method [1] but allegedly there’s some general anti-inflammatory effect.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3735239/

[−] cryzinger 40d ago
It's mildly anti-fungal as well, which makes it effective in dandruff shampoo since a lot of dandruff is caused by fungal overgrowth, aka seborrheic dermatitis.

Another weird/fun one is using bleach as an anti-inflammatory (topical only, of course...), although these days you can find derivative products that offer the same benefits but are much less harsh.

[−] gehwartzen 40d ago
I take a mild bleach bath sometimes and it’s quite invigorating. Seems to kill off a lot of skin surface bacteria which can sometimes be beneficial (there’s good and bad bacteria on your skin).

Not to be done too often but every once in a while I find it helpful. Not all that different from a strongly chlorinated pool.

Another cool one, especially if you don’t have a sauna, is doing a mustard bath. You will sweat like a stuck pig

[−] justinclift 40d ago

> ... doing a mustard bath.

So many questions...

American, English, or Dijon?

*Sponsored by Heinz? ;)

[−] gehwartzen 39d ago
lol. They make formulations you can buy but I make my own. A cup of ground mustard seed, which I buy fairly cheap online, and a few tablespoons of baking soda, plus some essentials oils mainly to cut through the mustard smell.

Pour that in a warm bath and soak for 20 mins. Then get out and wrap yourself in a towel and continue sweating for 15 mins or so.

[−] justinclift 38d ago
Maybe chuck in some chilli next time too?

Sounds like you're making human soup? :)

[−] soopypoos 40d ago
piss on your feet (not in the sauna)
[−] pimlottc 40d ago
Do you... eat the tar? Put it on your skin? What exactly do you do with it?
[−] mesrik 40d ago
Besides water proofing wooden boats and long time ago ships pine and fir tar it's been used protecting wooden roof tiles when they were a thing and still are used old wooden churches keeping and restoring.

It's used small amounts in additive in soap or shampoo mostly as a scent, mouth pastille and lozenge a for taste, animal health care kind antibacterial and bug resistant etc. long time ago.

Quite lot of applications especially old times long time ago before more scientifically developed medicines were commonly available. These days less there but it's used as a scent or for flavour.

[−] magneticnorth 40d ago
I believe they were asking in the context of the quote at the start of the thread - "If liquor, tar and sauna won’t help, an illness is fatal."

I'm also still unclear on how it was used to treat human illness (treating boats and roofs is clear enough)

[−] card_zero 40d ago
Sometimes you eat the delicious tar, yes!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terva_Leijona

I'm guessing these might no longer contain actual tar.

[−] raverbashing 40d ago
I think you can just replace it with Vaseline (Petroleum jelly) for 99% of the benefits
[−] actionfromafar 40d ago
That's not antiseptic
[−] numbsafari 40d ago
Go to an ER or UC and have them dress a wound for you. They will use a healthy dose of petroleum jelly and generally tell you to stay away from antibiotic ointments.
[−] brightball 40d ago
Use honey instead.
[−] atombender 40d ago
Not directly, but it acts as a barrier against microbes.
[−] lrasinen 40d ago
Tar. Specifically wood tar,
[−] jimmySixDOF 40d ago
Pine tar is used in topical medicine for dermatology around the world I don't think it's limited to anywhere particular.
[−] t-3 40d ago
In Finland, they are most likely using birch tar.
[−] lrasinen 40d ago
Nah, it's pine.
[−] amelius 40d ago
Isn't that the same stuff as in soldering flux?

Smells good, for sure. But I don't know if it promotes good health.

[−] louthy 40d ago
And coal tar
[−] ascii0eks84 40d ago
Not the tapes, tar pit tar, the black thingy used in boats. And now that I read what's the translation it seems to be asphalt actually.
[−] sollewitt 40d ago
Pine sap. You can get a schnapps of it, obviously.
[−] aivisol 39d ago
Checked life expectancy in Finland: I guess you use booze to offset the positive effects of sauna :)
[−] amelius 40d ago
Are there any scientific results showing that this helps?
[−] debo_ 40d ago
I'm not even Finnish and I came here to post this.
[−] cue_the_strings 40d ago
All of these studies are always performed by Finns (or SE / DK / NO + maybe Russia).

I'd love to see this (and other sauna studies) replicated by someone somewhere to the south or hotter climates in general (southern Europe, Africa, hotter parts of Asia and the Americas).

[−] gjulianm 40d ago
I doubt they would replicate it or any of the magical effects of saunas. Lots of the sauna studies suffer from the same issue where people self-report sauna usage rather than being assigned randomly to a treatment group. In countries where saunas are readily accessible and most people are under the impression that the more you use sauna the healthier you are, the ones that use the sauna less are probably because they tolerate it far worse. And that's probably related with age, comorbidities, physical condition, etc.

Basically, the sauna studies are probably mostly discovering that "healthier people can stand sauna longer". In countries where most people don't stand sauna for more than a few minutes, that self-selection bias won't exist.

[−] fy20 40d ago
Also location. In my country, saunas at home aren't as common in Finland, but basically every gym has one. So the people that use the sauna the most, are likely to be the most active.
[−] lukan 40d ago
If you want to experience positive health effects from sauna, you don't have to set records in heat and duration. You just get hot and sweat as much as you feel is fine. So you can do it in almost all conditions. Sweating out bad stuff from your body, activating the blood flow, unless you are at risk of a aneurysm - of course it is beneficial, even though it doesn't magically turn your health around. But a proper sauna and ice bath do revive and make you feel reborn. Try it at least at some point and then you can judge if it did not make you feel more alive and healthier and that all the studies around it a "probably bullshit".
[−] gjulianm 39d ago
There are two separate issues there. One, you feeling good about going to the sauna. If you feel good, that’s nice. But it’s your personal feeling from it. I personally did not have the same opinion about my lungs feeling as I was breathing fire, but to each their own. I’d rather do other nicer things to activate blood flow and feel revived.

The other is the health benefits, and that can only be measured from serious studies and not from how you or me feel about it later.

[−] curiousgal 40d ago
I don't know about that. As in yes I agree but that seems to apply to Western countries in general. For example in Tunisia, people go to public baths at least once a week and part of that involves sitting in a hot steamy room for 30+ minutes. So here you have an example for a population that does use sauna (in a way) but aren't relying on self-reporting.
[−] helsinkiandrew 40d ago
There’s a saying in Finland that foreign "saunas" are not true saunas at all, but rather just "untypically warm rooms".

The experiments where at 73°C which is a lot hotter than most gym/hotel/spa saunas I’ve been in outside Finland

[−] sumea 40d ago
And also replicated with participants not used to high temperatures inside a typical Finnish sauna. As the study said such people are very difficult to find in Finland. But I wonder if a person who has never been to a real sauna would tolerate this study protocol (2*15 min at 73° Celsius) without any training.

Sauna and hot climates may sound counterintuitive, but it has been tested by most Finns that when you come out of a hot sauna any outside temperature feels cool.

[−] Findecanor 40d ago
What about Japanese hot springs? ("onsen") Those are typically around 40°C but could be up to 60°C. Because it is hot water and not hot air the temperature would be transferred differently to the body though, so I don't think the numeric temperature is directly comparable.

Onsen baths are taken all year round: including summers that get hotter than in Finland, but especially enjoyed in winter.

[−] usrnm 40d ago
Ever heard of hamam?
[−] otuutti 39d ago
Only 1 test subject, but might at least be interesting read: https://blueprint.bryanjohnson.com/blogs/news/sauna-protocol
[−] Jensson 40d ago
It is hard to study this in a place with less access to saunas.
[−] hattmall 40d ago

>mitigate the adverse effects of low socioeconomic status

Makes me wonder how much of it is Sauna, vs just the luxury of having the time to go do nothing for ~30 minutes.

[−] moltar 40d ago
Anecdotal evidence. But since I started doing sauna regularly (once a week) I started to get sick less. I’m talking colds or flues. And the ones I did catch were much milder. Even with sick family members around I’m not catching it as often.
[−] gchamonlive 40d ago

> A total of 51 adults (...) were exposed to a 30-minute session of acute FSB at a temperature of + 73°C

Woah, that seems like a lot for me. I can usually stand maybe 60ºC for like 10 maybe 15 min. I don't think I'd be able to stand 30 min under 73ºC.

[−] bilsbie 40d ago
I’ve always wondered if it raises internal body temperature? Is it basically an induced fever?
[−] hbarka 40d ago
I’m not sure if I want a response of cytokine storms. MCAS is what comes to mind.
[−] oxag3n 40d ago
Back in Eastern Europe I frequently visited public "sauna" with my parents. It included jumping into freezing water after three heat sessions and the only thing you feel is just tingling in your skin. During those years all my respiratory illnesses were very brief and never affected lower areas (like bronchitis). The very first year I've emigrated I've got pneumonia and needed antibiotics twice during the cold season. The doctor told me it's just different viruses and I didn't have immunity for those (which is ridiculous considering globalization and I wasn't in an isolated tribe before).

For my parents though I think it was net health negative as public sauna was always accompanied with a lot of alcohol.

[−] hsuduebc2 40d ago
The thing about sauna I love the most is rare moment of absolute clarity after hot/cold cycle. I rarely can think so clearly, even if it's only for ten minutes, than after putting my body to stress by sauna heat.

Weirdly I never saw any explanation.

[−] ekropotin 40d ago
Cold showers - good for immune system. Heat expose - good as well. I guess what doesn’t kills us - makes us stronger is true after all.
[−] carlosjobim 40d ago
Sauna is the perfect activity to add to most people's everyday routine. It is 30-60 minutes of relaxation for the body and mind, which nicely fill in the slot between dinner and bedtime, instead of TV/Netflix or doom scrolling in the sofa.
[−] stevenhubertron 40d ago
Sample size is tiny fwiw.
[−] MrJagil 40d ago
I have been searching for benefits associated with hot yoga as well, but the area is very underexplored as far as i can tell.
[−] sexy_seedbox 40d ago
Why do Hongkongers (no sauna culture) and Japanese have higher life expectancy than Finns?
[−] geekraver 39d ago
What about non-Finnish sauna heat? Or do I have to go to Finland?
[−] ascii0eks84 40d ago
Sauna basically is the "hot winter" simulator.
[−] shevy-java 40d ago
Nordic strong men and strong women.
[−] api 40d ago
Does a long hot bath do the same?