Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18
For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to (remember the years before dot com bubble, saying: "I will be down in the basement at the computer to surf on the net little bit" ? :-)
But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!
Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt.
Personally, a service which is "only an app" will be not used by me as I prefer to have a larger screen with more information (actually I use my mobile phone only when Im in public transport or similar, at home I have a notebook laying around if I need something)
> But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!
I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.
For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.
I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
Honestly I think Apple perfectly captured it with their "what's a computer?" ad for the iPad. I seem to remember them getting some flak online for it but I think they were right on the money with regards to the younger generations.
> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
First hand from a couple of ~16 year olds I know. Definitely not a representative sample. Some know how to type at an acceptable speed. They're awful at shortcuts (alt-tab, many of the browser shortcuts that also present in many other programs (ctrl-w,-t,-s,-q) and most text-selection and movement shortcuts (ctrl-a,-x,-c,-v and (ctrl-)shift-left,-right)) so they navigate clumsily compared to us. They feel awkward when performing simple tasks but they do it faster than on a smartphone. They don't understand some of the terms and abstractions, likely because the smartphones keep that away from them.
Seeing them navigate things like homework or spreadsheets or multiple tabs in a browser from a smartphone is like watching a caveman trying to use a piece of brittle rock as a hammer. It will work in the end, but it's slow. I haven't looked at them closely enough, but I doubt they can comfortably keep more than 10 tabs open and navigate between them with the same speed as on a laptop or a desktop. I assume their browsing habits are qualitatively different than ours because of that. You can't really do adequate research on a smartphone.
My partner is a therapist and so I wind up in a lot of therapist groups and support groups for therapists. Many of them are youth therapists. I also coach kids and help coordinate youth athletics. My best friend is also a middle school teacher, along with his partner. So I think I have a decent grasp on where kids are at nowadays. At least in my area.
Most people I know who work with kids agree that the majority of children nowadays lack basic skills that will really handicap them in life. From a lack of basic reading/writing/typing/math skills to an ability to handle any kind of confrontation. The anti-social stuff is really, really bad and it compounds as life goes on, where kids never learn skills as they need to. Avoidance is really prevalent in people nowadays and this leads to never learning or atrophying basic skill sets. Then it also leads to not learning how to learn, or asking for help, etc.
Kids also lack the basic ability to put a series of tasks together to accomplish a larger goal. Critical thinking is severely lacking. Kids have grown up being able to ask a search engine a question or have an AI do tasks for them. The ability to understand how things work, then manipulate those things to meet a goal is just not there for a large amount of kids. I think we really need to bring back things like shop class, home ec, etc to get kids using their hands more. Kids need to be able to have an idea and then implement it in the real world. This is a skill I rarely see in kids nowadays. Way too often kids are told to avoid making mistakes and to get someone/something else to do things for them. The agency is just not there.
I really feel terrible for a lot of kids nowadays. Luckily, since I work with athletics and STEM kids, most of my tribe are eager to learn and move about. This is definitely not the norm nowadays though. My teacher friends are really struggling to feel like they're making a difference or benefitting these kids. It's sad because the problems are mostly related to their parents, not really the school system.
It kind of sound to me like you're surrounded by a lot of people who will tell you stories about kids, but only the ones who are having problems. Either because there's a selection that happened before they even encountered the kids (being a therapist), or because there's just no reason to talk about the ones that are doing fine (teacher)
Western society is made of the weaklings (I think the term nowadays is snowflakes) who will do anything to avoid fight/conflict, I realized it when I returned back after few years in China and saw everywhere these weak people. In China you have to be rude/fast to survive, ignoring other people's interests.
Same experience when I was kid before serving in military vs after serving in military, you really grow up fast over there from teenager.
They should be teaching assertiveness in the schools, western people will nowadays just complain on internet (internet heroes) or find excuse "oh it's just a dollar" to avoid conflict instead of complaining directly where it's suitable.
Interesting (I read this all) and wonder if it is a local issue vs a larger issue? Meaning are you seeing the influence of your local social economy class and how they parent?
I'm guessing this is a urban city area of upper middle class? I could be completely off.
> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
For college aged kids, most people are definitely not doing their homework on their phone. Many are still using paper and pencil. The one person I know who did do their homework on their phone tried to evangelize it to their friends and got ridiculed for it.
I just asked my college aged kid. He said pretty much everyone does their written homework on their laptop, but many will use their phones to do the reading.
Aside from being a bit small and having to be held close, phones are good proportions for reading. Computers screens have gotten wider and wider, and UIs bigger and bigger, and it eats into reading space pretty heavily. Especially if you don't have a high-density screen.
> Computers screens have gotten wider and wider, and UIs bigger and bigger
Sadly, most websites forcefully limit the width of the text. It's like they pretend our monitors are oriented to be tall rather than wide. Even HN has unnecessarily big margins. So unless I try to cram another window in my FHD monitor, I have ~50% or more completely wasted space. Margins should be 2-3 pixels wide, not 20-30% of the screen.
The major difference is that in the era of print, it was pretty logical where a multicolumn wide layout could go like on a newspaper, but in an desktop experience the browser markup is theoretically endless.
Solution: rotate your monitor 90 degrees, and inform your OS that you have done so. Now your monitor is 1080x1920. You'll actually be amazed how much more of a document fits on screen without sacrificing readability.
Preach. I have 4 monitors and one is a vertical 1440x2560. Massive productivity boost - terminals running claude code, reading docs, IDE panes, anything with lots of scrolling. Highly recommend it!
I can resize my window easily if I wanted shorter text. Or used ctrl-shift-m on Firefox. But I can't easily make the text longer without userscripts or addons.
> actual user studies to show that wider text is harder to read
That may apply to most people, but not to everyone.
afaict it applies to literally everyone. there's a variable "sweet spot" of course, but once you get out to "extremely wide" it's reliably worse for everyone, and there are LOADS of computer monitors that qualify for that label.
margins to control the width of large blocks of text have a ton of research in their favor, it's not just "more whitespace = more gooder" UI design madness. there's some of that of course, but there's a sane core underneath it all.
In addition to more space, having only one foreground application really reduces distractions and visual clutter. Also, for some reason I am comfortable using larger fonts on phones and tablets, which makes doing lots of reading easier than on my laptop.
Have you looked over the shoulder of somebody trying to "do" something on their phone recently?
If so you might have noticed the constant pings and notifications from dating apps, news sites, random games and cool-apps-that-you've-long-forgotten-but-still-have-location-and-background-services-turned-on.
That's not just interruptions. It's the notifications bar itself.
I noticed this only recently - I switched the default phone launcher to a scifi theme built on Total Launcher (there's legit personal research project reasons behind that, it's not just to look cool!) and after few days (and a bunch of missed messages), I realized my life seems suspiciously light in interruptions and random events. It took me a few more moments to pin-point the reason: the theme hid the notification bar entirely. It was still there, ready to pull down and expand with a gesture or a button tap - but that top line with icons was not visible (and through the stroke of luck, I misconfigured something in another experiment and had no notification indicators on the lock screen, either).
Not having notification indicators visible on any surface is really all it took - and conversely, this means that just having them there created the majority of the burden for me. I thought I successfully solved the distraction problem by silencing or eliminating ads and useless notifications, but now I know that even the important ones aren't really that important for the burden their very existence creates.
Android modes provide control over notification display.
Modes control which people and apps can trigger a sound/vibration, but also offer the option to hide the silenced notifications from the status bar, pull-down shade, and dots on app icons. I hide them from the status bar, but not the pull-down shade so that I can manually check if I want to, but don't see them at a glance.
I'm not a heavy user of this feature though; I mostly don't install apps that have spammy notifications.
I mean, some, sure. but it's a choice, and not all choose to do that. and I've watched quite a few (of all ages) escape it when they realize how much it's harming their ability to do what they need to do.
I don't feel comfortable reading from my laptop or phone in general. If a text isn't very short, I prefer saving it as .html or .pdf onto my e-reader, and that's such a MASSIVE improvement. That includes long comment sections too.
This is the first time I've heard someone say a smartphone reduces distractions.
As a millennial boomer, I prefer my triple monitor setup and mechanical keyboard, not to mention network- and client-level content blockers, whenever I have to input more than a sentence.
I was at a conference last week, and I took notes in a fullscreened GNU Nano. Distractions, ADHD, etc. Did get some odd looks, but I couldn't imagine taking notes without an actual keyboard. I'm not an ultra fast typer, but I'm decent - I'd challenge any thumb typer on MonkeyType.
I don't have any social apps or games on my phone. Other than the web browser there's nothing to distract me. I find it so easy to get caught up in checking the news or email or the episode of that show I was watching on my laptop, but I don't do any of those things habitually on my phone or tablet or reader so that's my "distraction free" device.
That's only for reading though! For taking notes I go with a real keyboard or pencil and paper whenever I have the choice.
For me, a phone is mostly less distracting because it's not very comfortable to use compared to a laptop. It's much less likely to get sucked into doing unrelated things when the experience is actively not that pleasant (especially when it comes to anything with typing).
similar here, I'm gradually removing more and more things from my phone. at this point it's mostly just a couple actually-important apps, a web browser, and messaging apps (because it's clearly superior to whipping out a laptop for brief things). "social" outside messaging is in the web browser or not on the phone at all. if I want to focus I just turn on Do Not Disturb for an hour.
browsing is slowly reducing as time goes on too, as while it's convenient on my phone, it's rarely efficient. it doesn't take long at all before I'd rather pull out a laptop and finish more quickly.
Can't confirm. We had students at university (18-20-ish) that had not used a mouse prior to our courses. That was at least 3-4 years ago now and not a single case.
The only situation I can think of is when you're in public transport and settling down with a laptop or paper is not really feasible. But if that came up frequently, I'd rather buy a tablet. Some students in my class also use tablets in class instead of laptops.
I started college 10 years ago and all of my homework was computer based, including Calculus and Linear Algebra. Of course for those higher level math classes I had to use paper and pencil to get to the answer but absolutely everything was submitted through an online portal. For any other classes the work was purely done on the computer.
What do you mean? A kid is anyone younger than the speaker. My step dad used to refer to Bill Clinton as a kid because he was the first president younger than him.
Many friends of mine send occasional nonsense in the middle of a text message, and it becomes obvious they're using voice to text.
I do that, but only sometimes, because of those dictation mistakes. If not for that, I'd use it a lot, because it's super convenient way to communicate or operate the phone on the go, while pushing a stroller, holding your other kid's hand in your other hand, holding an umbrella in the third hand, and a bag of groceries in fourth.
What I don't do, and hate with burning passion, is voice messages. I get the appeal for the sender, but excepting kids/teenagers, it's about the most annoying thing you can do for the recipient. There's hardly a moment in a busy adult's life where you can listen to someone's rambling without disrupting people around you and/or discomforting yourself and/or having to expend 100x the focus that reading takes.
For me, voice messages over 5 seconds long go straight to "Share" -> save to file [Ghost Commander] -> attach to a prompt saying "transcribe that for me" [any LLM app] - and I'm working on automating this away completely.
I think it's easier for kids to get hold of a phone at a younger age and become accustomed to it, and don't realise the jank / frustration it introduces when doing certain tasks.
I become unreasonably frustrated when having to search for things on the phone. Buying stuff online is a 'big screen task' not because of the security aspect, but because of needing to compare multiple products, which involve jumping between tabs. I can do that via shift/ctrl-tab, clicking, alt-tab etc - basically a single click. On the phone it's at least 3, and a genuinely grating experience saying nothing of having to copy and paste text for searching.
That said I've come across people that don't know basic copy and paste shortcuts / basic PC literacy, so for those I can see how the phone would feel no less efficient.
I think as kids get older, and their tasks require more digital complexity to complete, they'll slowly migrate towards laptops and larger screen devices (maybe including tablets, maybe not). Basic surfing etc is fine, but there is no way I want to be using even a spreadsheet on a phone - it's a miserable experience - saying nothing of something with genuine complexity like Blender.
I was somewhat shocked a while back when a coworker told me that they offered their kid a laptop for school work and the kid apparently said : Thanks but I’ll stick with my phone.
Whenever I read this I think "why are they even asking? You tell the kid hw and projects are done on the computer and that's it."
When I had trouble concentrating and learning 7x8 and random ones around there, my dad made me stand facing a wall so I would concentrate lol. Not in a forceful way, but it was his tool to make sure I concentrated til I got it.
I can't imagine him watching me make a major life mistake like trying to learn and practice my work on a phone instead of sitting down at a desk.
It is also the case that PCs are still more expensive than phones. Had a work colleague in one of my first customer facing service jobs who relied almost completely on an android phone to get everything done from mortgage applications to entertainment before I gifted them one of my lesser used laptops.
high end phones are 1k, you can buy a used thinkpad for 200$ or a chromebook for 500$ or now the macbook neo for 600$. Well it's also that the phone you need it so the laptop/pc it's an aditional cost
If we're talking about people having a hard time affording a phone - why tf are you bringing up high-end phones at all? I'm in no way poor and my $300 phone was already a pretty painful expense. In those cases, we'd be talking about a <$200 Chinaphone.
Also yeah, indeed, there are affordable laptop options given how much of a necessity it feels like. That tends to be more value per dollar in a laptop too. Personally not comfortable buying secondhand though because I can't risk money on that scale, and there are much less guarantees on the state of the hardware, although would like to eventually learn how to do it as safely as buying new.
I was probably one of the first people doing some of these "big screen tasks" on my phone nearly two decades ago when I was a teenager who spent his first earned money to get an Openmoko Neo Freerunner - I learned a lot by programming the phone on the phone itself - but what was exciting about it was that I could do all these things even when I did not have a big screen and a keyboard in front of me. When I do, it's just so much more comfortable to do it there, especially these days when touch screens are capacitive and not very accurate anymore!
I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.
Yup. From the frontier of mobile tech, I can say that a foldable phone (Galaxy Z Fold 7) is the first mobile device that successfully ate into this category, and bit a rather substantial chunks out of it. It's only been ~6 months into this experience, but the "big tasks" for me now are the ones that benefit from substantial use of keyboard and/or mouse. If it's only about screen space or doing things in 2-3 apps at the time, chances are my phone is now good enough for its mobility to beat inconvenience - though chances are also good that at least one of the programs will be a browser, because mobile apps still suck.
It's because of limited RAM that this distinction started.
On especially older phones if I were to write a long comment and move to a different tab or app before submitting, I can all but guarantee the OS would kill and try reloading the tab and lose all my text. What's even worse is this could happen mid online purchase which can have even greater consequences (double booking or purchasing especially but things like flight tickets). People who grew up with older phones saw this happen all too often and moved to a desktop or laptop computer where that literally never happens, at least by default.
This, I'd bet, is the primary reason for big vs small screen activities, although of course there are many secondary ones, such as the phone being many kids' primary interface
This still happens on Android phones with enough RAM, it drives me insane and Firefox is especially bad for this since it will literally always reload the current tab when moving back to it. Phone software is just horrible all around. Multi-tasking simply does not work on phones.
This resonates. There are certain tasks, like dealing with any government or healthcare-related web page, that I won't even bother attempting on my phone. In my case, it's because I just know in my heart of hearts that the crummy mobile website won't be feature-complete enough for me to complete my goal.
My wife is the opposite. It doesn't occur to her that the problem may be with the janky website, not with her. She'll ask me for help with a thing out of frustration and my first troubleshooting step is to reach for my laptop. This is almost inevitably followed by "hey, wait, how come you're able to press the Submit button but I wasn't able to?" "Because the dev never tested this on a phone and it's broken." "So it's not just me being incompetent to use this website?" "Nope, never was."
For many kids, they have one device and it’s a phone or tablet. They may have access to a computer, but not on demand. Much like when many of us were growing up and had one computer.
I’ve been trying a bit of an experiment on my current trip and I’m still skeptical about iPad plus Magic Keyboard. Better than alternatives but still so-so. I think I’ll go back to my 10+ year old MacBook Pro but unless something really changes I’ll just pick up an Air for traveling at some point.
I switched to using my iPad Pro M5 + Magic Keyboard nearly full time. I use it for literally everything and also have it connected to an external monitor.
The only asterisk is that I also own a Mac Mini but I keep it attached running headlessly to my router and access it from the iPad via Jump Desktop and only use it exclusively for dev work (I only use a single external monitor anyway even with a normal Mac) or if I really need Chrome occasionally. But macOS used in that way feels almost native to the iPad.
Prior to this I was looking at an MBP and selling the iPad but this has convinced me to stay with it for the time being and maybe just upgrade the mac mini to a studio instead and continue to use it remotely.
People hate on it but so far I've been using it this way and it really feels next gen to the point that using a Macbook with macOS vs. the iPP + iPadOS feels genuinely archaic. With the latest iPadOS beta too things have gotten better on the Safari from as well and tabs no longer refresh as aggressively (though it's not perfect still).
Not to mention the significantly higher amount of security with iPadOS and AppleCare benefits (specifically theft protection) that comes with this setup.
If Android desktop mode improves a bit more and the Motorola devices for GOS next year look good then it wouldn't be inconceivable that I could drop my devices from 3 to 2 and not need a proper PC or Mac at all.
Certainly the Magic Keyboard is way better than any alternatives I’ve seen. Have tried to give it a good shot but maybe just haven’t tried hard enough and default back to what I’m used to.
When I get home need to ponder a bit more because some gear is very old or was declared to be unsalvageable after smoke damage from a kitchen fire.
> For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.
Thanks for the honor! :)
Sometimes I even copy links from here and send them by mail to myself so I can reply later - maybe Im getting tooo old? :-D
(on the iPhone I would store it in a simple textnote)
I find much of the HN community insightful and interesting, but in terms of consumer feedback (especially in a B2C environment) I wouldn't touch feedback here with a 10-foot pole.
I don't mean that to be an insult, quite the opposite. Most people here are power users. But that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet.
"Why do I need to download a 100+ MB app, give it permission to track my location, and let it run background processes just to browse through a restaurant menu, buy a ticket, or scroll through a list of posts?"
-------------------
Hardware/software companies have, historically, targeted power users because regular users listen to them. The companies producing these apps do so because they can benefit from exploiting the data of regular users, but risk little blowback from power users if they keep their web versions up to date and in good shape.
That doesn't mean power users should ignore the presence of these apps however. We should be telling regular users to avoid them for their own safety. We should also be worried that, if we stay quiet and let regular users flock to apps, the motivation to maintain web access will be eroded. When all power users vanish into a single percentage point and a platform achieves total dominance over the alternatives, companies might well choose to focus on only apps.
> that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet
Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer.
Yes, we are in a bubble here - as with every niche/special interest topic: It would be same for me if I would join a "car tuning event" or similar - Im just a car user, and I do not know of all these details and nuts & bolts
> Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer.
I don't think so. A majority don't want to. But they are forced by geeks/nerds. Geeks/nerds often show off especially in family/friends parties with older/common folk - telling - I can do this/that. Then average CEO or parent is forced to get a smartphone.
Next the geek/nerd - has no time to maintain the computer/laptop of the parent. Or loses patience explaining updates/double-click/avoid scammer installing software. Then - boom - geek son/daughter - if smart gets a decent pixel/iphone - otherwise gets a shitty Android device - installs everything there. Moves on.
And finally remember it is the young same geek/nerd that will eventually do programming for FAANG/palantir etc. which forces people to install apps, degrade privacy, worsen webapp/websites - all for money.
I think this is missing that older people are not stupid, and they could learn how to use software if they spent the time. Many older folks used even more complicated software in the past, and then they lost the skill or didn't keep it up to date.
A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness.
A large part of this is ALSO software's fault, though. Software changes too quick and for no reason. Software these days lies to users, erroding confidence.
> A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness.
Already as young guy in 20's I've found this also works with female government bureaucrats (tax bureau, etc.), who are usually older women at least in their 50s and exploiting their natural maternal instinct. They will be much more laidback about your paperwork and will help you to fill it, if you just pretend to be helpless/stupid little kid they need to help.
OTOH I've found if you need to bend the rules, you are much more likely to succeed with (older) man bureaucrat who wanna show off he doesn't need to follow the rules to the T, but he can use some leeway and help you, while women will strictly follow the rules.
Obviously the young female bureaucrat in her 20-30s is best to be avoided and rather take new number and wait in queue for older female/male worker if possible.
So there are two approaches suitable depending on situation you are dealing with.
Maybe you are focusing on small statistic of older people from white-collar jobs. Most people in > 70s were primarily in jobs that never needed IT. Yes, they have seen computers , faxes, scanners but not sit in front of computers 9-5. Remember HN needs to remember plumbers, bricklayers, nurses, etc
Very fair point, as an experienced B2B guy myself whenever someone ask me advice about B2C in like “I have no idea”. Been doing this for 25 years but B2C especially today geared towards younger audience is impossible to related for me. I assume majority of the demographics of HN similar
Honest question do you really use all of those tabs? As a small handful of tabs user I use the bookmark feature to hold things I want to keep for later. ctrl-d and it is in the list. Even then 99% of the time I open it again and go 'why did I keep this'. I get it that it is your workflow. Just sort of curious why you would consider that a 'power user' thing? Would not saving them to the bookmark list be more of 'power user' sort of thing to do?
I don't know why, but equating how many tabs a person has open to how much of a power user they are sounds like something right out of a south park episode.
The whole bookmark/tab system really needs to be completely revised. I have a new system I'm thinking about for my Chromium fork which will be radically different. More like a full-page "new tab" screen where everything can be visualized and sorted into different projects etc.
Just look at how most people do a search, for instance. These days for me it often involves 20-30 tabs, or even more, due to the horrific state of internet search. Many results have to be explored, many links from those results also explored, more searches done to narrow in on the precise keyword needed to bring up some hopefully good results, etc. And I can't close all that until the answer is found, as I may need to backtrack, so they just pile up. It's really quite ridiculous how much work it takes to find a good answer these days.
Compare with the typical person who just does one search with some suboptimal keywords then clicks on the first link, or starts dutifully absorbing the AI-generated garbage. Orders of magnitude difference.
I have dozens of projects I'm actively working on just for my Linux distro. Dozens of tabs open for things like X11 window management, for instance, or some info on C++ modules for another project. Lots of tabs open for a hardware project. All kinds of balls are up in the air here. Why put any of this stuff in bookmarks which is a waste of time and energy to manage, when I can just leave it in the tab list, organized in multiple windows spread across different desktops? (I have 64 desktops on my 55" plasma display.)
(lol @ the other guy's reply. That didn't age well.)
hey, light power user here - for a while I was using tabXpert browser extension for this, but they have recently changed to paid-only and I havent had a chance to check out their competition but might end up just buying it anyway
it groups sessions, not just tabs, so i can (for example) have all my banking websites together as a session that i can open and close as a window of tabs. the convenience is it organizes the sessions as named things that i can manage in a UI. transfer tabs from one session to another, close tabs, check tabs that have been closed in that session, etc.
if you know of any tools like this or an easy way to manage it independently without a 3rd party browser extension, I would be interested. Sounds like maybe you are doing something similar but at the desktop level, creating a new desktop to pick up and put down? are they savable and transferable between devices? I like to close everything down at night to run some games with friends, and am going to be building a new comp soon and for various reasons starting fresh with software and importing things as i need them rather than flashing my current setup forward to the new hardware
I agree with this a lot tbh. I think we need to have better support for tiling or something iframe-like in web interfaces. Probably for deep research or focused work, we need something more tree-shaped than the flat tabs-with-back-button structure web browsers expose.
Interesting. I personally aggressively prune open pages. If I have too much open I get off task and wander into whatever random thing pops up. Anything that needs long term storage I bookmark it in a folder.
Using the session manager that is one I used to use. But backed away from. I use a lot of tools to keep me on task and not wander off into random things.
For me it is about attention and focus. You seem to have a very different pattern than what I use. ctrl-w and alt-left arrow are my buddies.
I've never explored 20-30 search results. Not since Google anyway. If I don't find what I want in the first few I rephrase the search or try a different search engine. The world beyond the first page of results basically doesn't exist.
I have an app that is literally just a wrapper around the website. The mobile website and the mobile app are the exact same experience.
Before I built the app, people were constantly asking me to build a mobile app. Yes, I had a PWA but people still wanted an app.
I thought it was kind of silly but I eventually built that wrapper app. It immediately got thousands of downloads, users upgrading to paid plans increased by 10x, and app users have way better metrics that website users.
It's pretty interesting, but as a website owner, having an app is valuable.
That's my stance as well. Unless the website is completely broken or the devs force me to download the app by blocking features on the website I prefer the web.
With responsive design becoming mainstream I'm fine with using my browser for 90% of my internet work. In some cases like Google docs it's painful to use the web version so I just use the app.
EDIT: I wish they'd add a console to mobile web browsers though.
My experience might be the minority, but I have found that 95% of the time, when an app is available on both web and native mobile, the native mobile version is significantly better - usually not because it's a fantastic app or has more features, but rather because the web version is more buggy/slow/confusing.
Whether I prefer an app to be web or native is purely based on the use case (I probably would choose native for a dozen use cases and web for the remaining one million use cases), but that's orthogonal to the fact of which one is actually better.
Edit: And to be clear, I'm not referring to cases where the web app is purposefully restricted or injected with dark patterns to drive users to native. Even if you ignore those cases, this pattern still stands in my experience. Though, that doesn't mean there is no indirect quality bias, e.g. more money spent on the native devs than the web devs.
The site that irks me the most here is New York Times. Opening an article in the mobile browser often has a toast over the bottom third of the article to open it in their app for "a better experience". I struggle to think how nytimes isn't a perfect fit for a site over an app. The only frustrating experience I have with the web version that would be better in the app is not seeing that that pop-up.
Web browser is a sandbox by default. Worst a sketchy site does is eat a tab, less if you run an adblocker. Native app? Background processes, hardware ID shenanigans, your contacts, location. The whole buffet.
Browsers don't allow notifications if you don't have the site open. Browser ads can get blocked by browser extensions. Browsers make it harder to have an icon for a site/service directly on the home screen. Browsers make it harder to get extensive permissions. Browsers allow content to displayed without first being run through an approval process.
For companies these are all downsides but for me they are all upsides. It really is us vs them when it comes to apps vs browsers. The only reason they offer websites at all is out of fear of losing a big chunk of users.
This is my stance as well, but keep in mind that a lot of people have the opposite preference.
They didn't grow up with the world wide web. They only started using technology when Android and iPhone was popular. They only know Whatsapp, Youtube, TikTok. They're not used to using the browser.
There's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0]
A few years ago I had an interesting experience at a company where I was working on a new prototype iPhone app and asked people around the office to install it... and a surprising number of people didn't want to do it because their phone was full already and they didn't want to delete photos in order to try a new app.
Made me realize that for a lot of people who get cheaper phones with less storage installing a new app is actually a pretty big decision.
I also find that because the web version is worse in order to push you to download the app, it is a good way to not get sucked into endlessly scrolling. Get in, do what you need, and get out because of bad experience.
I will cast my vote for mobile websites over apps on phones. For personal choice reasons I have always had a "budget" phone with less memory and storage (and less cost) than a flagship phone. I also kept them running for years.
At the end of the cycle I can barely run the base phone let alone the menagerie of apps the world would like me to run.
I have opted out of app only service such as a Loyalty programs that forced me to transfer point from a partner only if I installed an app on my phone. They have enough info on me from purchase, they don't need more. (I even offer my card to strangers in the grocery cash if they did not have the loyalty card so they would get a discount and I would get a list of products I never buy in my loyalty list. Its a small, willful act of rebellion )
The sad reality is people _want_ apps and the people paying for web/apps to be built also want apps (even before we talk about tracking/ad-blocking reasons).
I too love the web, but throughout my career the idea of web-first/web-only has been DOA. There is some level of perceived prestige from having an app.
I've told this story countless times but on multiple occasions I've written cross-platform apps using web technology. Throughout the development process, I have urged or even begged the stakeholders to try out the web-based version on their phone. It's almost identical. You just see the browser chrome in the web version. And yet it's not until I provide native builds that some people will even bother to look at.
I provide web interfaces as part of the package but I could probably skip that and no one would bat an eye (I won't though, it's practically free to do that alongside the native apps and I prefer it).
There are a handful of things you can only do, or only do well, in an app so I do understand that argument. Also, I find some PWA-advocates to clearly not be living in reality: "You can do X in a PWA" - only if you hate yourself and enjoy silly limitations that clients do not and will not understand or care about ("Just make it work, an app can do this!").
Unless you use it several times a day, downloading an "app" just gets in the way. You should never have to download an "app" for a one-time use.
We never went back to the restaurant in Cupertino where the table QR code tried to force downloading an app that onboarded you into a food delivery service. That restaurant was treating on-site customers as delivery orders with a very short delivery distance. The food wasn't very good, either.
I was helping my mom with the simple task of installing an app on her iPhone SE. "64 GB" of storage (about 20 of which taken by OS and other system files). It turned into a two hour long slog of me determining which apps she needs, and of the ones she needs, how to back up her data to icloud so Instagram and other apps aren't taking 500mb each on her phone.
This standard of every random website having an app and poorly managing cache and storage needs to stop. My mom can't begin to even understand how to fix it, and worse, she didn't even recognize half the apps I mentioned to her, which probably means she mindlessly clicked install on a bunch of random websites.
We do not need more app bloat on our devices, especially if they are just thin wrappers over your web app.
My analog is something along the lines of "please build a small room in your house, closet-sized at first, but with enough room to grow to twice that as we add features, so we can give you the best possible temperature and weather information. Also, we need access to your full contacts so you can share how you feel about the weather more easily, with just a push! Also also, we need a hot microphone in your closet, so you can shop our umbrella store by just talking to our AI assistant! Also also also, your privacy is important to us."
It only needs to be "an app" if it is using hardware to do it's main job. There is never another reason to make it an app.
Sometimes apps lack the features of the web versions. For example, I wanted to translate a document on Android. When I was trying to open Google translator website, the system was redirecting me to the app. Unfortunately, I couldn't see document translation feature in this app. Could still open the website in incognito mode. This is really maddening me.
I had a doctor tell me that I had to buy an Android or iOS phone (I own neither) and install their new app, or they would be unable to continue seeing me as a patient.
Found a new doctor, because anyone that thinks this way I do not trust my heath to.
Absolutely no one will make me own a cell phone or install corpo spyware. It is still actually a choice.
I will not download them on a train, I will not download them on a plane, I will not download them in a box, I will not download them with Firefox. I will not download them Sam I am.
How much of the native app push is to bypass ad blockers? If you’re just using a browser plugin like AdGuard or uBO it can’t block in a dedicated app unless you replace it with AGH or PiHole, can’t help but wonder if that plays a role as well
The restaurant QR menu situation is peak 'we installed an app for the app' energy. I scanned a code expecting a menu and instead got a Play Store redirect. Just let me see the food.
The worst offenders are services that literally work fine in mobile Safari but pop a banner saying 'for the best experience download our app' covering half the screen. The web version is already the app, you just painted a door on the wall.
I asked the same question a few years ago, and the answer I arrived at is that the app has, by default, more permissions (not only technical but also conventional) to collect data, send push notifications, and otherwise harass the user.
While I sympathize with the author, and feel the same way, I think Apple/Google have some blame here. They make certain simple things only possible in the apps, because the APIs are not exposed via the web.
Notifications is a big obvious one. Not sure if they've changed it since I last looked into it, but having an app installed was the only way to send a notification to someone for a long time.
The cookie/session isolation is underrated. Half the reason services push you to the app is because the mobile browser experience for juggling multiple web apps is genuinely bad — not because the web can't do it, but because nobody's made it comfortable. I got annoyed enough to put together a small webview manager that keeps a few web apps in tabs with separate cookies: https://github.com/theoden8/webspace_app (yes, it's written in flutter)
I've been running a video game collection site for years. The number one request I get from people is to build an app. I've worked so hard on making the mobile version of the site to be just as functional as the desktop version, and I don't really understand why people want an app over just using the web version. I sometimes wonder if I should just do it to see if I'm missing out on market share, but I don't really want to have to maintain two different user interfaces.
Mostly I am quite tired of the 30 step onboarding funnel all apps have. I was trying out a fitness app and the second I opened it, I was about step 9 into it and I just deleted the app.
Folding phones are the big/small screen compromise. One you fold, nobody goes back.
The samsung fold7 in particular is the same thickness/weight as slab phones, but unfolds to become a tablet. Please don't vote if you haven't held one. The compromise is cost, durability (dust, water), some battery life & some camera. Huge gains in productivity and night-to-day difference consuming video and photos. Google Maps FTW.
Those are valid arguments but I like apps better, for other reasons. Mostly security.
When I use, say, the Signal app:
- I can audit it, download it or even compile it myself from sources
- Once I have installed it, Signal doesn't get to change it "in my back"
- As a result, I don't need to trust Signal for the end-to-end encryption, which is the whole point of end-to-end encryption.
When I use a webapp, say ProtonMail:
- Every time I load the webapp, it is downloaded from the Proton servers. Even if I once stop to audit it, next time I load it, it may totally be a different codebase (that e.g. adds a backdoor, potentially just for me, and just this one time).
- I need to trust that Proton doesn't inject a backdoor to extract my key, then end-to-end encryption is useless. I could also trust Proton to not read my emails, right?
- If a webapp is served by a CDN, I have to trust that the CDN doesn't tamper with it. Actually Meta has an extension made for verifying that for WhatsApp Web. The extension is a bulky way to make sure that you loaded what Meta wanted you to load (i.e. that Cloudflare did not tamper with it), but it DOES NOT ensure that Meta did not inject a backdoor just for you, just this time.
I don't understand it from the app developers point of view. Having to pay app store cuts over basic card processing fees. I understand the appeal of access to a market, like selling on eBay gets you eyeballs. But once you have a customer using their app, what does the app give you that a PWA doesn't unless you need access to specific sensors / file system access patterns etc?
Agree with the article. I’m increasingly jaded by the state of the web.
Something that has been happening for a long time on iOS Safari that I only recently realized: pinch to zoom on sites like Reddit, instagram, shopping sites, and many others cause what I’m calling “website seizures.” Where I try to zoom in and half the time the page reloads completely or triggers a reload but ends up throwing an error.
On one hand, I don’t know why startups make apps. It requires more devs and keeping everything at parity is tough with desktop, iOS, android, mobile web. Seems pragmatic to just simplify and use web.
But on the other hand, I’d love to pay you $0.99 if it meant I could get an ad free version of your little widget and I’m not sure how to do that easily with web
This also skips over with some hand waving that a lot of mobile app uses cases simply can’t be replicated with web sites. Take gps or smart home control as two easy of the top of my head example the author skipped too.
Also the fact that people here would rather have their info stored in the cloud vs local on device is interesting.
Being required to use an Android app sucks and is annoying, but an AOSP VM would solve the issue. Perhaps MITM-ing the app would be harder than MITM-ing a site without reversing the app. And not everyone has the hardware resources for an Android VM.
But for me the main issues with "you need our app" BS is that they don't give you the apk but tell you to download it from the Google Play Store. They don't give you the source for the apk as well, as if it's such a huge trade secret how some shitty API works. The worst offenders ask for all the attestation shit (unrooted phone and so on). That's what's wrong with apps vs sites, not just the format itself. We should fight for FOSS apks with no attestation if companies want to invest so heavily in apps.
My Google Chrome app is by far the most used app on my phone. If you catch me at a random moment on my phone, chances are I'm on Chrome.
Sometimes the mobile app experience is better than the mobile browser for me, though. Examples are Twitter, Spotify, Upwork, Google Keep Notes.
If I'm on my computer I don't even download the apps, I just use the browser. It just feels more convenient.
I haven't thought much about why they all feel good on my laptop browser while some apps offer better experience on mobile.
Edit: It's also why I keep procrastinating on getting into mobile app development. I just generally prefer web experience. With some exceptions as already stated here.
App developers are not living up to the expectations and needs that these services have in our lives. MyQ for example, is a Garage Door opener . It’s a key. It needs to meet the responsiveness and reliability expectations of a key. Instead, the app is slow, the buttons often freeze , the app logs itself out without notifying you – so in the most urgent situation you don’t have access to open your door.
Even some of the better ones don’t take themselves seriously. Buggy, hostile UIs , slow.
Honestly I don’t believe most of the producers are even using their own apps. I’m able to discover critical bugs within 2 minutes using nearly any app.
I've more than once had a company reply to a bug report about their website, "did you try using the app instead." To which I usually reply, "why would I trust your site with direct access to my phone when you can't make a website that works correctly?"
That's just my thinking... I try not to install apps most of the time, I don't want them to have access or even the greater chance at breaking security/isolation. On a similar vein, I still can't believe that LinkedIn didn't get permanently banned from Apple and Google stores when they broke security to spy on emails.
I think it's best to ignore this kind of user feedback and focus on the users who really want the service or product and are willing download an app if necessary or use the web version if necessary. Popular opinions on apps/web and desktop/mobile change every few years. I remember when Facebook became deeply unpopular and was afraid of going under because they didn't manage to provide a native app.
Because of the walled gardens, duplication of efforts, and waste of resources I'd personally favor if apps died out but that is never going to happen because they always have better platform integration.
We're all here debating the friction of downloading apps versus the convenience of the mobile web, but we might be missing the bigger picture. Both are UI-heavy paradigms designed for humans to click things.
In a few years, we won't care if a service has a slick React app or a native iOS build. We’ll just tell our AI agents: 'Book that flight' or 'Fix my billing issue,' and they’ll talk to the APIs directly. The era of 'interfaces for humans' is peaking; the era of 'headless services for agents' is just beginning. Interfaces are becoming a legacy tax.
My bank is now doing this: for a few newish and not-quite-essential services you can only use their app, the rest you can still do via the web.
The same has been going on with radio and podcasts for a while: e.g., the BBC, or my newspaper, wants me to install their app to listen to their streams or podcasts, while I much rather concentrate all my listening in one central radio or podcast app for all my sources. Note that a system for paid-only podcast subscriptions via generic podcast apps actually exists, but I've never used it since no podcast maker I listen to actually uses it.
Though I agree with the author & use the web version of various applications, there is another side to this. The author says s/he uses plugins to disable ads and so on. If its an ad supported site for which one does not pay, this is tantamount to expecting the provider to run the service for no compensation/revenue at all.
Furthermore, to say platform owners don't care about offending such users would be an understatement: platform owners likely want to actively repel such users. Why serve someone who neither pays a fee nor agrees to be shown ads?
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Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18
For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to (remember the years before dot com bubble, saying: "I will be down in the basement at the computer to surf on the net little bit" ? :-)
But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!
Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt.
Personally, a service which is "only an app" will be not used by me as I prefer to have a larger screen with more information (actually I use my mobile phone only when Im in public transport or similar, at home I have a notebook laying around if I need something)
> But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!
I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.
For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.
I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
Honestly I think Apple perfectly captured it with their "what's a computer?" ad for the iPad. I seem to remember them getting some flak online for it but I think they were right on the money with regards to the younger generations.
> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
First hand from a couple of ~16 year olds I know. Definitely not a representative sample. Some know how to type at an acceptable speed. They're awful at shortcuts (alt-tab, many of the browser shortcuts that also present in many other programs (ctrl-w,-t,-s,-q) and most text-selection and movement shortcuts (ctrl-a,-x,-c,-v and (ctrl-)shift-left,-right)) so they navigate clumsily compared to us. They feel awkward when performing simple tasks but they do it faster than on a smartphone. They don't understand some of the terms and abstractions, likely because the smartphones keep that away from them.
Seeing them navigate things like homework or spreadsheets or multiple tabs in a browser from a smartphone is like watching a caveman trying to use a piece of brittle rock as a hammer. It will work in the end, but it's slow. I haven't looked at them closely enough, but I doubt they can comfortably keep more than 10 tabs open and navigate between them with the same speed as on a laptop or a desktop. I assume their browsing habits are qualitatively different than ours because of that. You can't really do adequate research on a smartphone.
Most people I know who work with kids agree that the majority of children nowadays lack basic skills that will really handicap them in life. From a lack of basic reading/writing/typing/math skills to an ability to handle any kind of confrontation. The anti-social stuff is really, really bad and it compounds as life goes on, where kids never learn skills as they need to. Avoidance is really prevalent in people nowadays and this leads to never learning or atrophying basic skill sets. Then it also leads to not learning how to learn, or asking for help, etc.
Kids also lack the basic ability to put a series of tasks together to accomplish a larger goal. Critical thinking is severely lacking. Kids have grown up being able to ask a search engine a question or have an AI do tasks for them. The ability to understand how things work, then manipulate those things to meet a goal is just not there for a large amount of kids. I think we really need to bring back things like shop class, home ec, etc to get kids using their hands more. Kids need to be able to have an idea and then implement it in the real world. This is a skill I rarely see in kids nowadays. Way too often kids are told to avoid making mistakes and to get someone/something else to do things for them. The agency is just not there.
I really feel terrible for a lot of kids nowadays. Luckily, since I work with athletics and STEM kids, most of my tribe are eager to learn and move about. This is definitely not the norm nowadays though. My teacher friends are really struggling to feel like they're making a difference or benefitting these kids. It's sad because the problems are mostly related to their parents, not really the school system.
> skills to an ability to handle any kind of confrontation. > Avoidance is really prevalent in people nowadays
I see both of those in plenty of middle aged people (my age). Conflict is a hard skill to learn, and avoidance often works.
When dealing with someone who maximally escalates, avoidance can be the alternative to violence.
> [Conflict] Avoidance is really prevalent in people nowadays
Nowadays? Fight Club was joking about it quarter century ago. Relevant clip:
https://youtu.be/WWNrPCakd2I?si=tOaYgRd3g0Zarbzl&t=8
Western society is made of the weaklings (I think the term nowadays is snowflakes) who will do anything to avoid fight/conflict, I realized it when I returned back after few years in China and saw everywhere these weak people. In China you have to be rude/fast to survive, ignoring other people's interests.
Same experience when I was kid before serving in military vs after serving in military, you really grow up fast over there from teenager.
They should be teaching assertiveness in the schools, western people will nowadays just complain on internet (internet heroes) or find excuse "oh it's just a dollar" to avoid conflict instead of complaining directly where it's suitable.
I'm guessing this is a urban city area of upper middle class? I could be completely off.
> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
For college aged kids, most people are definitely not doing their homework on their phone. Many are still using paper and pencil. The one person I know who did do their homework on their phone tried to evangelize it to their friends and got ridiculed for it.
> Computers screens have gotten wider and wider, and UIs bigger and bigger
Sadly, most websites forcefully limit the width of the text. It's like they pretend our monitors are oriented to be tall rather than wide. Even HN has unnecessarily big margins. So unless I try to cram another window in my FHD monitor, I have ~50% or more completely wasted space. Margins should be 2-3 pixels wide, not 20-30% of the screen.
The major difference is that in the era of print, it was pretty logical where a multicolumn wide layout could go like on a newspaper, but in an desktop experience the browser markup is theoretically endless.
> actual user studies to show that wider text is harder to read
That may apply to most people, but not to everyone.
margins to control the width of large blocks of text have a ton of research in their favor, it's not just "more whitespace = more gooder" UI design madness. there's some of that of course, but there's a sane core underneath it all.
> reduces distractions
Have you looked over the shoulder of somebody trying to "do" something on their phone recently?
If so you might have noticed the constant pings and notifications from dating apps, news sites, random games and cool-apps-that-you've-long-forgotten-but-still-have-location-and-background-services-turned-on.
I noticed this only recently - I switched the default phone launcher to a scifi theme built on Total Launcher (there's legit personal research project reasons behind that, it's not just to look cool!) and after few days (and a bunch of missed messages), I realized my life seems suspiciously light in interruptions and random events. It took me a few more moments to pin-point the reason: the theme hid the notification bar entirely. It was still there, ready to pull down and expand with a gesture or a button tap - but that top line with icons was not visible (and through the stroke of luck, I misconfigured something in another experiment and had no notification indicators on the lock screen, either).
Not having notification indicators visible on any surface is really all it took - and conversely, this means that just having them there created the majority of the burden for me. I thought I successfully solved the distraction problem by silencing or eliminating ads and useless notifications, but now I know that even the important ones aren't really that important for the burden their very existence creates.
Modes control which people and apps can trigger a sound/vibration, but also offer the option to hide the silenced notifications from the status bar, pull-down shade, and dots on app icons. I hide them from the status bar, but not the pull-down shade so that I can manually check if I want to, but don't see them at a glance.
I'm not a heavy user of this feature though; I mostly don't install apps that have spammy notifications.
As a millennial boomer, I prefer my triple monitor setup and mechanical keyboard, not to mention network- and client-level content blockers, whenever I have to input more than a sentence.
I was at a conference last week, and I took notes in a fullscreened GNU Nano. Distractions, ADHD, etc. Did get some odd looks, but I couldn't imagine taking notes without an actual keyboard. I'm not an ultra fast typer, but I'm decent - I'd challenge any thumb typer on MonkeyType.
That's only for reading though! For taking notes I go with a real keyboard or pencil and paper whenever I have the choice.
browsing is slowly reducing as time goes on too, as while it's convenient on my phone, it's rarely efficient. it doesn't take long at all before I'd rather pull out a laptop and finish more quickly.
> or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.
On the other hand, I've noticed lots of people use voice on their phone instead of a keyboard.
Many friends of mine send occasional nonsense in the middle of a text message, and it becomes obvious they're using voice to text.
As a young kid, why would I laboriously type a homework paper when I could dictate it from the couch or some other better location than a desk?
>
Many friends of mine send occasional nonsense in the middle of a text message, and it becomes obvious they're using voice to text.I do that, but only sometimes, because of those dictation mistakes. If not for that, I'd use it a lot, because it's super convenient way to communicate or operate the phone on the go, while pushing a stroller, holding your other kid's hand in your other hand, holding an umbrella in the third hand, and a bag of groceries in fourth.
What I don't do, and hate with burning passion, is voice messages. I get the appeal for the sender, but excepting kids/teenagers, it's about the most annoying thing you can do for the recipient. There's hardly a moment in a busy adult's life where you can listen to someone's rambling without disrupting people around you and/or discomforting yourself and/or having to expend 100x the focus that reading takes.
For me, voice messages over 5 seconds long go straight to "Share" -> save to file [Ghost Commander] -> attach to a prompt saying "transcribe that for me" [any LLM app] - and I'm working on automating this away completely.
I become unreasonably frustrated when having to search for things on the phone. Buying stuff online is a 'big screen task' not because of the security aspect, but because of needing to compare multiple products, which involve jumping between tabs. I can do that via shift/ctrl-tab, clicking, alt-tab etc - basically a single click. On the phone it's at least 3, and a genuinely grating experience saying nothing of having to copy and paste text for searching.
That said I've come across people that don't know basic copy and paste shortcuts / basic PC literacy, so for those I can see how the phone would feel no less efficient.
I think as kids get older, and their tasks require more digital complexity to complete, they'll slowly migrate towards laptops and larger screen devices (maybe including tablets, maybe not). Basic surfing etc is fine, but there is no way I want to be using even a spreadsheet on a phone - it's a miserable experience - saying nothing of something with genuine complexity like Blender.
When I had trouble concentrating and learning 7x8 and random ones around there, my dad made me stand facing a wall so I would concentrate lol. Not in a forceful way, but it was his tool to make sure I concentrated til I got it.
I can't imagine him watching me make a major life mistake like trying to learn and practice my work on a phone instead of sitting down at a desk.
>
I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.Yup. From the frontier of mobile tech, I can say that a foldable phone (Galaxy Z Fold 7) is the first mobile device that successfully ate into this category, and bit a rather substantial chunks out of it. It's only been ~6 months into this experience, but the "big tasks" for me now are the ones that benefit from substantial use of keyboard and/or mouse. If it's only about screen space or doing things in 2-3 apps at the time, chances are my phone is now good enough for its mobility to beat inconvenience - though chances are also good that at least one of the programs will be a browser, because mobile apps still suck.
On especially older phones if I were to write a long comment and move to a different tab or app before submitting, I can all but guarantee the OS would kill and try reloading the tab and lose all my text. What's even worse is this could happen mid online purchase which can have even greater consequences (double booking or purchasing especially but things like flight tickets). People who grew up with older phones saw this happen all too often and moved to a desktop or laptop computer where that literally never happens, at least by default.
This, I'd bet, is the primary reason for big vs small screen activities, although of course there are many secondary ones, such as the phone being many kids' primary interface
My wife is the opposite. It doesn't occur to her that the problem may be with the janky website, not with her. She'll ask me for help with a thing out of frustration and my first troubleshooting step is to reach for my laptop. This is almost inevitably followed by "hey, wait, how come you're able to press the Submit button but I wasn't able to?" "Because the dev never tested this on a phone and it's broken." "So it's not just me being incompetent to use this website?" "Nope, never was."
The only asterisk is that I also own a Mac Mini but I keep it attached running headlessly to my router and access it from the iPad via Jump Desktop and only use it exclusively for dev work (I only use a single external monitor anyway even with a normal Mac) or if I really need Chrome occasionally. But macOS used in that way feels almost native to the iPad.
Prior to this I was looking at an MBP and selling the iPad but this has convinced me to stay with it for the time being and maybe just upgrade the mac mini to a studio instead and continue to use it remotely.
People hate on it but so far I've been using it this way and it really feels next gen to the point that using a Macbook with macOS vs. the iPP + iPadOS feels genuinely archaic. With the latest iPadOS beta too things have gotten better on the Safari from as well and tabs no longer refresh as aggressively (though it's not perfect still).
Not to mention the significantly higher amount of security with iPadOS and AppleCare benefits (specifically theft protection) that comes with this setup.
If Android desktop mode improves a bit more and the Motorola devices for GOS next year look good then it wouldn't be inconceivable that I could drop my devices from 3 to 2 and not need a proper PC or Mac at all.
When I get home need to ponder a bit more because some gear is very old or was declared to be unsalvageable after smoke damage from a kitchen fire.
> For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.
Thanks for the honor! :)
Sometimes I even copy links from here and send them by mail to myself so I can reply later - maybe Im getting tooo old? :-D (on the iPhone I would store it in a simple textnote)
I find much of the HN community insightful and interesting, but in terms of consumer feedback (especially in a B2C environment) I wouldn't touch feedback here with a 10-foot pole.
I don't mean that to be an insult, quite the opposite. Most people here are power users. But that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet.
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Hardware/software companies have, historically, targeted power users because regular users listen to them. The companies producing these apps do so because they can benefit from exploiting the data of regular users, but risk little blowback from power users if they keep their web versions up to date and in good shape.
That doesn't mean power users should ignore the presence of these apps however. We should be telling regular users to avoid them for their own safety. We should also be worried that, if we stay quiet and let regular users flock to apps, the motivation to maintain web access will be eroded. When all power users vanish into a single percentage point and a platform achieves total dominance over the alternatives, companies might well choose to focus on only apps.
- just click on the icon, no need to type to address bar or search in bookmarks list
- faster to load - no need to download JS/CSS, also my credentials are remembered so no need to login
- biometric login, no 2FA (finance apps, etc.)
- notifications and their customization (browsers only have on/off)
Why do I prefer mobile web:
- I need multiple instances (tabs) of the website
- I need to know URL of the specific page
> that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet
Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer.
Yes, we are in a bubble here - as with every niche/special interest topic: It would be same for me if I would join a "car tuning event" or similar - Im just a car user, and I do not know of all these details and nuts & bolts
> Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer.
I don't think so. A majority don't want to. But they are forced by geeks/nerds. Geeks/nerds often show off especially in family/friends parties with older/common folk - telling - I can do this/that. Then average CEO or parent is forced to get a smartphone.
Next the geek/nerd - has no time to maintain the computer/laptop of the parent. Or loses patience explaining updates/double-click/avoid scammer installing software. Then - boom - geek son/daughter - if smart gets a decent pixel/iphone - otherwise gets a shitty Android device - installs everything there. Moves on.
And finally remember it is the young same geek/nerd that will eventually do programming for FAANG/palantir etc. which forces people to install apps, degrade privacy, worsen webapp/websites - all for money.
A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness.
A large part of this is ALSO software's fault, though. Software changes too quick and for no reason. Software these days lies to users, erroding confidence.
> A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness.
Already as young guy in 20's I've found this also works with female government bureaucrats (tax bureau, etc.), who are usually older women at least in their 50s and exploiting their natural maternal instinct. They will be much more laidback about your paperwork and will help you to fill it, if you just pretend to be helpless/stupid little kid they need to help.
OTOH I've found if you need to bend the rules, you are much more likely to succeed with (older) man bureaucrat who wanna show off he doesn't need to follow the rules to the T, but he can use some leeway and help you, while women will strictly follow the rules.
Obviously the young female bureaucrat in her 20-30s is best to be avoided and rather take new number and wait in queue for older female/male worker if possible.
So there are two approaches suitable depending on situation you are dealing with.
Maybe you are focusing on small statistic of older people from white-collar jobs. Most people in > 70s were primarily in jobs that never needed IT. Yes, they have seen computers , faxes, scanners but not sit in front of computers 9-5. Remember HN needs to remember plumbers, bricklayers, nurses, etc
Not everyone is from Gates type families
Just look at how most people do a search, for instance. These days for me it often involves 20-30 tabs, or even more, due to the horrific state of internet search. Many results have to be explored, many links from those results also explored, more searches done to narrow in on the precise keyword needed to bring up some hopefully good results, etc. And I can't close all that until the answer is found, as I may need to backtrack, so they just pile up. It's really quite ridiculous how much work it takes to find a good answer these days.
Compare with the typical person who just does one search with some suboptimal keywords then clicks on the first link, or starts dutifully absorbing the AI-generated garbage. Orders of magnitude difference.
I have dozens of projects I'm actively working on just for my Linux distro. Dozens of tabs open for things like X11 window management, for instance, or some info on C++ modules for another project. Lots of tabs open for a hardware project. All kinds of balls are up in the air here. Why put any of this stuff in bookmarks which is a waste of time and energy to manage, when I can just leave it in the tab list, organized in multiple windows spread across different desktops? (I have 64 desktops on my 55" plasma display.)
(lol @ the other guy's reply. That didn't age well.)
it groups sessions, not just tabs, so i can (for example) have all my banking websites together as a session that i can open and close as a window of tabs. the convenience is it organizes the sessions as named things that i can manage in a UI. transfer tabs from one session to another, close tabs, check tabs that have been closed in that session, etc.
if you know of any tools like this or an easy way to manage it independently without a 3rd party browser extension, I would be interested. Sounds like maybe you are doing something similar but at the desktop level, creating a new desktop to pick up and put down? are they savable and transferable between devices? I like to close everything down at night to run some games with friends, and am going to be building a new comp soon and for various reasons starting fresh with software and importing things as i need them rather than flashing my current setup forward to the new hardware
Using the session manager that is one I used to use. But backed away from. I use a lot of tools to keep me on task and not wander off into random things.
For me it is about attention and focus. You seem to have a very different pattern than what I use. ctrl-w and alt-left arrow are my buddies.
> Or look at the dogged adherence to Windows even to this day after decades of Microsoft abuse
Or the people who absolutely refuse to give up Chrome, despite the whole adblock situation. "But I don't like the way Firefox tabs look!"
There seems to be a disconnect between some developers and the younger folks.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526
* Reddit won't let you read "unreviewed" content on mobile web (but will on desktop web)
* PayPal won't let you pick your 5% rewards category, or set up balance auto-replenish without their app
* Robinhood Banking won't let you see your credit card statement or pay your balance without their app
* Instagram won't let you share posts as stories without their app
* SeatGeek won't let you attend events without their app (no will call, mailed tickets, print at home, or mobile web)
Before I built the app, people were constantly asking me to build a mobile app. Yes, I had a PWA but people still wanted an app.
I thought it was kind of silly but I eventually built that wrapper app. It immediately got thousands of downloads, users upgrading to paid plans increased by 10x, and app users have way better metrics that website users.
It's pretty interesting, but as a website owner, having an app is valuable.
With responsive design becoming mainstream I'm fine with using my browser for 90% of my internet work. In some cases like Google docs it's painful to use the web version so I just use the app.
EDIT: I wish they'd add a console to mobile web browsers though.
Whether I prefer an app to be web or native is purely based on the use case (I probably would choose native for a dozen use cases and web for the remaining one million use cases), but that's orthogonal to the fact of which one is actually better.
Edit: And to be clear, I'm not referring to cases where the web app is purposefully restricted or injected with dark patterns to drive users to native. Even if you ignore those cases, this pattern still stands in my experience. Though, that doesn't mean there is no indirect quality bias, e.g. more money spent on the native devs than the web devs.
For companies these are all downsides but for me they are all upsides. It really is us vs them when it comes to apps vs browsers. The only reason they offer websites at all is out of fear of losing a big chunk of users.
They didn't grow up with the world wide web. They only started using technology when Android and iPhone was popular. They only know Whatsapp, Youtube, TikTok. They're not used to using the browser.
There's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0]
So, it'll depend on your target audiences.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526
Made me realize that for a lot of people who get cheaper phones with less storage installing a new app is actually a pretty big decision.
At the end of the cycle I can barely run the base phone let alone the menagerie of apps the world would like me to run.
I have opted out of app only service such as a Loyalty programs that forced me to transfer point from a partner only if I installed an app on my phone. They have enough info on me from purchase, they don't need more. (I even offer my card to strangers in the grocery cash if they did not have the loyalty card so they would get a discount and I would get a list of products I never buy in my loyalty list. Its a small, willful act of rebellion )
I too love the web, but throughout my career the idea of web-first/web-only has been DOA. There is some level of perceived prestige from having an app.
I've told this story countless times but on multiple occasions I've written cross-platform apps using web technology. Throughout the development process, I have urged or even begged the stakeholders to try out the web-based version on their phone. It's almost identical. You just see the browser chrome in the web version. And yet it's not until I provide native builds that some people will even bother to look at.
I provide web interfaces as part of the package but I could probably skip that and no one would bat an eye (I won't though, it's practically free to do that alongside the native apps and I prefer it).
There are a handful of things you can only do, or only do well, in an app so I do understand that argument. Also, I find some PWA-advocates to clearly not be living in reality: "You can do X in a PWA" - only if you hate yourself and enjoy silly limitations that clients do not and will not understand or care about ("Just make it work, an app can do this!").
We never went back to the restaurant in Cupertino where the table QR code tried to force downloading an app that onboarded you into a food delivery service. That restaurant was treating on-site customers as delivery orders with a very short delivery distance. The food wasn't very good, either.
This standard of every random website having an app and poorly managing cache and storage needs to stop. My mom can't begin to even understand how to fix it, and worse, she didn't even recognize half the apps I mentioned to her, which probably means she mindlessly clicked install on a bunch of random websites.
We do not need more app bloat on our devices, especially if they are just thin wrappers over your web app.
It only needs to be "an app" if it is using hardware to do it's main job. There is never another reason to make it an app.
The crazy part is how many teams still treat the web as the demo and the app as the “real” product. For a lot of stuff it's the opposite now.
I know there are edge cases, but most of the time “download our app” just means “please care way more about our product than you currently do.”
Found a new doctor, because anyone that thinks this way I do not trust my heath to.
Absolutely no one will make me own a cell phone or install corpo spyware. It is still actually a choice.
The worst offenders are services that literally work fine in mobile Safari but pop a banner saying 'for the best experience download our app' covering half the screen. The web version is already the app, you just painted a door on the wall.
I do agree that this seems to be exception rather than the rule - so having both is actually nice IMHO.
Notifications is a big obvious one. Not sure if they've changed it since I last looked into it, but having an app installed was the only way to send a notification to someone for a long time.
I can just use the web version instead and skip all that, along with the memory usage (for the most part).
The samsung fold7 in particular is the same thickness/weight as slab phones, but unfolds to become a tablet. Please don't vote if you haven't held one. The compromise is cost, durability (dust, water), some battery life & some camera. Huge gains in productivity and night-to-day difference consuming video and photos. Google Maps FTW.
When I use, say, the Signal app:
- I can audit it, download it or even compile it myself from sources
- Once I have installed it, Signal doesn't get to change it "in my back"
- As a result, I don't need to trust Signal for the end-to-end encryption, which is the whole point of end-to-end encryption.
When I use a webapp, say ProtonMail:
- Every time I load the webapp, it is downloaded from the Proton servers. Even if I once stop to audit it, next time I load it, it may totally be a different codebase (that e.g. adds a backdoor, potentially just for me, and just this one time).
- I need to trust that Proton doesn't inject a backdoor to extract my key, then end-to-end encryption is useless. I could also trust Proton to not read my emails, right?
- If a webapp is served by a CDN, I have to trust that the CDN doesn't tamper with it. Actually Meta has an extension made for verifying that for WhatsApp Web. The extension is a bulky way to make sure that you loaded what Meta wanted you to load (i.e. that Cloudflare did not tamper with it), but it DOES NOT ensure that Meta did not inject a backdoor just for you, just this time.
Something that has been happening for a long time on iOS Safari that I only recently realized: pinch to zoom on sites like Reddit, instagram, shopping sites, and many others cause what I’m calling “website seizures.” Where I try to zoom in and half the time the page reloads completely or triggers a reload but ends up throwing an error.
But on the other hand, I’d love to pay you $0.99 if it meant I could get an ad free version of your little widget and I’m not sure how to do that easily with web
Also the fact that people here would rather have their info stored in the cloud vs local on device is interesting.
But for me the main issues with "you need our app" BS is that they don't give you the apk but tell you to download it from the Google Play Store. They don't give you the source for the apk as well, as if it's such a huge trade secret how some shitty API works. The worst offenders ask for all the attestation shit (unrooted phone and so on). That's what's wrong with apps vs sites, not just the format itself. We should fight for FOSS apks with no attestation if companies want to invest so heavily in apps.
Sometimes the mobile app experience is better than the mobile browser for me, though. Examples are Twitter, Spotify, Upwork, Google Keep Notes.
If I'm on my computer I don't even download the apps, I just use the browser. It just feels more convenient.
I haven't thought much about why they all feel good on my laptop browser while some apps offer better experience on mobile.
Edit: It's also why I keep procrastinating on getting into mobile app development. I just generally prefer web experience. With some exceptions as already stated here.
Even some of the better ones don’t take themselves seriously. Buggy, hostile UIs , slow.
Honestly I don’t believe most of the producers are even using their own apps. I’m able to discover critical bugs within 2 minutes using nearly any app.
That's just my thinking... I try not to install apps most of the time, I don't want them to have access or even the greater chance at breaking security/isolation. On a similar vein, I still can't believe that LinkedIn didn't get permanently banned from Apple and Google stores when they broke security to spy on emails.
Because of the walled gardens, duplication of efforts, and waste of resources I'd personally favor if apps died out but that is never going to happen because they always have better platform integration.
The same has been going on with radio and podcasts for a while: e.g., the BBC, or my newspaper, wants me to install their app to listen to their streams or podcasts, while I much rather concentrate all my listening in one central radio or podcast app for all my sources. Note that a system for paid-only podcast subscriptions via generic podcast apps actually exists, but I've never used it since no podcast maker I listen to actually uses it.
Furthermore, to say platform owners don't care about offending such users would be an understatement: platform owners likely want to actively repel such users. Why serve someone who neither pays a fee nor agrees to be shown ads?
When Chrome started supporting PWAs you couldn't bookmark the content at all. They seem to have fixed that now.