I think a lot of it has to do with mental status, which can be concluded with one sentence -- "Are you happy with your life, and if not do you have a clear path to reach that?".
People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true.
I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months.
Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
I agree. In my case I am physically very fit but sometimes neglect my health in other ways, including mentally and definitely including poor sleep habits.
Regarding what you said about focus, I think an ADHD diagnosis might help a lot of people here. I suggest asking for a full profile including WAIS testing, which assesses intelligence, because it is the "deficit" between various types of intelligence and attention that matters. Highly intelligent people sometimes are overlooked because their focus, working memory, etc. seem normal or even better than average, but the gap between those and their intellectual capacity creates a lot friction at least for some people.
I recently got diagnosed and am really looking forward to taking a low dose of stimulants in the mornings on work days, I hope it will help me "find a clear path" in my professional life.
My wife was diagnosed within last 2 years and thinks it has changed (and helped) her come to terms with a number of behaviors. And learn how to resolve/improve.
I wonder about me, too. Haven't done it. Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?
>Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?
Hear me out on this, while it often may seem to be the case that it looks like everyone has it, it very well may just be that you unknowingly choose your surrounding in a way that simply everyone around you has it.
Difficulties navigating everyday life and my career pretty much, I am intelligent and capable but the struggle to manage everything was becoming too much.
yep, or call a clinic that does it. Search for MOXO, DIVA 5. The most important part is education. Sure, the medication helps, but understanding the root causes of mood swings, motivation, executive functions, hyperfocus, perfectionism, and emotional dysregulation is so important.
Educating yourself on how the brain works, the most important organ, is hugely underrated. Imagine playing a game with only half the screen visible. You wouldn’t see your stats, enemy info, or the map. It would be frustrating to play.
On the other hand, outcome-driven fitness (pursuing a goal like "i want to get shredded") never worked for me as well as process-focused.
I have strong legs not because that was a goal, but because I fell in love with cycling and never set ANY goals, just enjoyed getting out and riding my serotonin machine.
That might be more sustainable for some people, but if your interests/hobbies are constantly in flux (which mine are as well to an extent), maybe not. I need to find a way to enjoy the process of sleeping more.
I wish I could be like that. I'm more or less a result-driven person, but whenever a result is achieved (e.g. complete all xv6 labs) I became lost and frustrated, and was eager to find the next one. But my mind was usually burnt out during the previous process, so it usually takes a few months of frustration to get everything settled so that I could move on.
The "pinball" concept in "The Soul of a New Machine" rings very true to me -- "The motivational system is akin to the game of pinball, the analogy being that if you win this round, you get to play the game again." -- this is exactly what I feel. But the pinball game is more and more difficult, sometimes too difficult for my fragile mind -- and I still have a day job and a family to take care of.
Same here, I guess this mode caters to specific type of personality (not obsessive about goals, achievements, not constantly comparing against others - at least I am none of those).
I like going to gym for past 15 years, it feels great to do some free weights. Not destroy myself, just a good workout. Body adjusting/maintaining not-a-bad-shape is a nice bonus.
In my case, I often find life goals and enjoy the journey when I'm mentally healthy, not vice versa.
I can't control my mood, but when I am positive, I start a new hobby like dancing or playing an instrument, cook healthy, lift, sleep well, study new things, etc.
But when I'm depressed, I lose all interest in my life goals, eat junk food, skip exercise, and browse the Internet all night. I can't even enjoy my hobbies anymore.
It's always my mood that comes first, then I can find life goals and naturally do all healthy stuff.
Funnily, when I'm mentally healthy I also visit Hacker News frequently, but when I'm depressed all I do is infinite scrolling Reddit/TikTok.
It could be a bit like that elusive thing called motivation. "Just do it" seems so annoying when people say it but in my case sometimes its the only way to start building momentum. What im saying is dont wait for mood, perhaps the mood will develop once you obtain momentum on a goal or task.
Yeah I do hold this attitude and try to side brush "mood", which I believe is a mere suggestion, not a command. However I noticed a completely different "mode" when I'm operating IN project and BETWEEN projects.
When I'm IN project, "just do it" works very well. But when I'm BETWEEN projects (this is when I completed a project, and dived into the next project, but found out that I did not enjoy it or got lost or whatever), "just do it" only works when "just do it" -- it doesn't really create a focus needed to move the projects forward. What I got frustrated is that this IN BETWEEN period could take multiple months to get out, which is a super waste of time. If only I could figure out as soon as I completed the previous project, I'd achieve so much more -- you see, for the type of projects I'm working on, I could not afford to wait for several months, or even several weeks -- because this is not my daily job, so if I wait for too long I'm going to lose the knowledge -- it's like muscle training, you can't stop for several weeks and hope muscle retains.
I use the “just do it” trick a lot myself. It was something I discovered when I was in my early 20s, hiking the Appalachian Trail, which requires you to get up and move every day. My partner and I did not have much money, so if we failed to finish, we would not have a second chance. I remember waking up one morning after a rainstorm, realizing that I left my boots outside the tent. They were cold and wet. Putting them on was going to be unpleasant. I thought “I just need to do it so that I can have other things that I want in my life.” Something clicked in that moment. Now, whenever I don’t want to do something I ask “does it help me do or be what I want?” It helps a lot. From big goals (eg, earn a degree, get the job I want, etc) to little tasks (take out the garbage, clean the toilets, etc). Oddly I find the little jobs to be the hardest, probably because although I recognize that living in a house with clean toilets is something I want, it’s not obviously connected with a motivating goal. This mental trick is very helpful for the little tasks.
It really is. Exercise and eating well was an activity I became capable of participating in as a result of the correct therapy and dramatically boosted its effects, not something I could persist at when already depressed.
When people claim the contrary it's feels more of a test to see if you can be perceived as responsible enough for your own actions to be worth helping. An individualistic mindset like that isn't very productive at alleviating depression.
Have you been to therapy? What did it look like? I'm thinking about getting one, but I'm not sure whether anyone could fix me when I'm fundamentally unhappy about life -- but definitely not to the point to consider suicide.
I think we're soulmates. You articulated so well what I think about my own approach or lack of approach.
> Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
Agree, at least in concept. I'm aware that some of my perceived or real lack of of progress in some life areas is due to mental instability. Various forms of it, some more active than others or present than others.
A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.
But do I like the passion or do I just not have clear goals? What should they be?
In 2022 I was evaluating a senior position at a start-up and a friend asked: "what are your goals, or what are you solving for." My wife asks this question too.
And I tend to stare somewhat blank at the question. As an adult, the goals I'm sure I want have much less to do with career and much more with self. Be happy. Be productive. Be a warm and loving person. Be a responsible, fun, constructive parent.
That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity. And so I've resorted over time to likely unproductive/destructive approaches - more argumentative than necessary, sometimes very responsive, sometimes unresponsive, substances and behavioral things that look like bad habits, addictions, etc.
Work to live, not the other way around. Work produces income and is a means to an end.
Drill down a couple of levels on what it means to you to be happy, productive, warm, and loving. What do an ideal day and week look and feel like? What kind of life would you like your kids to have? Not abstractly. What would their ideal school situation be? How far from school? Any special opportunities like certain clubs, interest in playing an instrument, sports teams? Do you just do weekend warrior stuff, or does being a responsible, fun, constructive parent mean you’re picking them up after school regularly to go make memories?
Let’s say it’s something like the last bit for a moment. “Begin with the end in mind” is one of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and in this case, the end is being a fun parent by going for ice cream or to the park or watch a movie or take guitar lessons together a couple of days a week after school. To make that happen, you’ll need to have flexible work hours and maybe a work location near their ideal school. Do the rare and valuable knowledge and skills that you’ve accumulated allow you do that? If so, great! You’re passionate about being a good parent; you don’t need that from your job. Your job is a means to an end. If the current conditions of your job get in the way of your goal of being a responsible, fun, constructive parent, how could you modify job parameters?
There’s no right answer. There’s your answer. What do you want for your kids? What do you want for you and your wife now and after they’ve left the nest? Walk around in a day, a week of that life in your head. There’s your end. Work backward from there.
> A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.
I think maybe you can move into a managerial position that doesn't need to do much in the trench, or become a trainer in that field.
> That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity.
Yeah. I figured there is a lot of ambiguity in life objectives, and there is no one there to help you. You just have yourself in this game.
> What do you do to work through these challenges?
TBH, I do not know what to do. I have a toolbox for the "down" time, but neither of them really solves it. Sometimes I listen to "Napoleon Hill" episodes to give me some motivation (this one I listened to today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5jAzHpI3w). Sometimes I talked to myself and tried to sort out something. Sometimes I talked to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a list of something.
I kinda think there is no magic pills for such situations and one just has to grit through.
Maybe grit is the answer. I don’t know. I agree that to some degree momentum of any kind helps break a rabbit-hole moment. But it’s not that alone that always solve the problem.
One thing I know helps. Keep talking to people
Keep conversation flowing who buddies, connections, or new acquaintances.
So happy to find ways to connect here too if having a sparring moment during these moments helps!
I agree. It's just a tool that may or may not be useful. I also found that getting rid of caffeine for a couple of weeks, and then take up a cup, gives a much larger boosts to the mood.
I wonder if it would help thinking through what makes you feel satisfied. I think many of us feel a bit crushed and demotivated when the reason to get up every day is extrinsic: taking care of somebody else, solving problems for somebody else, etc. Even if you are skilled at those tasks, it can feel pointless even if you recognize intellectually that they are important.
I’ve always felt that there was a big difference between doing something and doing something well. My grandfather, who grew up in an immigrant family on a farm during the Great Depression, used to say “do it well or don’t do it at all.” And it showed in his actions. He would spend enormous amounts of time doing things that just did not seem worth it to me at the time; eg, he obsessed about growing flowers when he had all these other skills that could be making him money. When I finally understood what drove him—that nearly any task can feel worthwhile when you move from simply doing it to doing it as best you can-it changed my relationship with work and other tasks in life. Another commenter here suggests that you should “work to live” and not the other way around, but I don’t really see them as separate. If you have the quality relationship with work in mind when you do it, when you connect it to doing things well, it’s hard to avoid feeling like your actions are also a part of living excellently, and for me at least, that fills me with a tremendous feeling of satisfaction.
I was a bit skeptical about “do it well or don’t do it at all.” but then I realized my father is like that and then I understand. He might be a bit messy about very small things in life, but he is dead serious about anything else. The "smart" part is just NOT do anything you don't care, it seems.
For me, I wish I could be like that. I definitely need to work harder to achieve that. I tend to gloss over anything I don't like. Maybe that's why I never learned to grit through in my 40 or so years of life.
I’ve always envisioned those states as ‘swimming’ versus ‘treading water.’
The deal I have with myself is that it’s okay to tread water for a while - if you’re tired, if you need a break, if you’re not quite sure where to go next - but you can’t wait too long, because the current will move you wherever it wants. To get where you want, you’re always going to have to start swimming again.
This is the type of hen-egg dialectic that takes me straight to evolutionary theory. My guess is that the 'standard human tribe', ~200 strong, needs some people to be up at night. But since we don't have dedicated day/night humans, we all get this shared mess of a genome 'you need to be up at night sometimes'.
Or it could simply be that you perceive your life as more happy and can find clearer goals when you exercise, eat healthier food and get good sleep, which is overwhelmingly the case and pretty obvious once you once you stop treating willpower as if it can magically stand in for unmet physiological needs.
For me there is definitely a blocking factor, like awaiting for a click, before I can move into exercises and healthier food and such. Maybe it is a rare case and I do wish it is the other way around.
Actually now that I think about it, "The Soul of the New Machine" / "Showstopper" both describe this kind of mental (although I'm far from a good engineer) when engineers are done with a project, they get frustrated during the waiting period between two projects. This is pretty similar to what I felt -- whenever I finished a project, I tried to find new projects to work on immediately, not want to lose the momentum, but frustration quickly mounts among 1) I was burnt out temporarily but could not take a break, and 2) It's hard to find projects suitable for my level. It usually took a few months for this frustration to pass, which is frustrating by itself.
Most people who are not happy are not happy precisely because they can't find a clear path to reach happiness. It's the realization you are stuck in a shitty spot that makes the true feeling of unhappiness. A lot of people are also restricted by their own body and mind through mental and physical illness which makes pursuing basic goals frustrating not rewarding. Also a lot of people get rejected when they chase girls and fail when they take IQ tests or pursue high paying work.... I guess your worldview makes sense for smart winners but how does it work for the other half of the world?
I'm actually neither smart nor winning, at least from my perspective. The only winners are those who can do whatever they want and can say No to anything they don't enjoy. There are very few of them. The majority of the rest of us are similar, regardless of whether you are making 100K or 500K. Then there are the homeless/jobless people who are struggling with basic needs.
I'm not sure which half you are talking about, but I'm really bad at giving advice, especially to people in different situations. I do not have the authority or capacity to help others genuinely.
this mirrors my experience too. I’ll just add that some times taking a complete break from work is necessary to find the mental clarity to reach the state where learning, stability and happiness are possible.
I used to be able to do this but after having kids they always seem to reset the clock before you can make any headway. I still have not figured out how to regain the clarity. There is no substitute for unobstructed long stretches of time to focus on something. Being unexpectedly interrupted or put on a schedule just ruins it.
I have a kid and I get it. I'm actually a bit scared about long vacations and weekends nowadays. But I hope we will figure out a way when kid grows up a bit. Right now, it's all luck. I'm even thinking about getting rid of my hobbies and find new ones that match kid's education and activity, but not sure about that.
This comment is obviously true but uninteresting if you don't elaborate further on those causes
What I mean is, the comment you replied to isolated a specific cause and sparked a discussion; your comment, if taken at face value, is thought-terminating. How can we possibly comprehend all causes of complex phenomena before we are allowed to discuss them?
About the universally true thing, I understood it as whether people that's unhappy with life generally have trouble sleeping, not whether everyone that have trouble sleeping is unhappy with life. Still probably not an universal but is more reasonable sounding
How can I explain to my 6 months old girl that we all need to sleep :D
This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane....
BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them.
You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them.
I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause.
One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse.
I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go.
It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL.
The most important thing about sleep I learned is to fall asleep at the same moment of every day. Make it 22:00 or 23:00 or 00:00. Whatever is comfortable for you. But you have to stick to the chosen hour as hard as you can. Every day from now on it has to be that hour. After you get used to that you will notice a much better effect of the sleep.
The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day.
I genuinely have to revisit old information.
A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week!
When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock.
This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
I think nearly everyone should be screened for sleep apnea. The at-home test you wear on your finger is so cheap - it doesn't make sense not to do it for anyone who has any issues with sleep or tiredness in the day.
I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested.
Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason.
The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight.
Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
I have a somewhat rarely diagnosed circadian rhythm disorder called delayed sleep phase disorder. It is difficult to get diagnosed, especially as sleep clinics have been targets of private equity firms which convert them to CPAP shops which only diagnose sleep apnea and whose patients never interact with an MD. However it is likely to be underdiagnosed given the stigma around sleep challenges, at least in the sense that if you make any effort to get enough sleep with such a sleep disorder, you tend to be pegged as lazy, irresponsible, unreliable, etc
In any event, I agree with something implicit in the article, namely that most people have a degree of this, but the severity is variable. Mine has been fairly extreme, and while diagnosis enables disability accommodations, it is very fraught navigating most workplaces with this particular disability and you are essentially forced to choose between having any kind of upward mobility and getting enough sleep at night.
Thankfully the past two years or so I've been getting much more sleep since optimizing more for that. But anyway, if you are navigating sleep challenges you should get a sleep study, sure, but also be aware that your local sleep clinic is in all likelihood only nominally a sleep clinic. That is, it does not know how to diagnose and treat more complex sleep issues and probably doesn't want to.
If only I knew how to have full non-interrupted restorative sleep. It seems that my body started losing that skill about 20 years ago, and lost it altogether about 6 years ago. The falling asleep time is a lottery and I'm always waking up after the first stage, often a few more times after that.
Tried all kinds of sleep medication, but by now I've forgotten what it's like to not be half-asleep and unable to concentrate throughout the day (with loud tinnitus and a soupy feel in the brain to boot). Really sucks out any and all enjoyment from life, I can't even find the energy to watch TV shows anymore, let alone read books. I haven't learned anything fundamentally new at work for years too (inertia helps with daily routine).
As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?
Hm, no, non-24 is not just a severe version of DSPS. Or rather he seems to be saying DSPS is really just a less severe version of non-24.
I have it. What I've learned from my doc (a researcher in the field):
It's primarily a specific genetic mutation that affects many of they body's cyclic timers, but relevant here is that the circadian feedback loop is no longer able to lock to a 24 hour day/night cycle at all. The timer technically works. You're perfectly sensitive to light/dark, but you're hitting a PLL with inputs faster than its ability to make meaningful adjustments. That's not the case with DSPS.
Sleep apnea diagnosis is relevant here, it also breaks the breathing reflex timer. Imagine finding out at age 40 that you've not, in fact, slept more than a few minutes at a time your entire life, because you wake up just enough to take a breath every 3 minutes or so when a secondary suffocation reflex goes off.
I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.
I got 4h of sleep last night which is about my normal average at this time of the year, and I have 0 regrets about it. I also don't sleep at a regular time every day. If I have no other obligations, I naturally let it shift forward (what the article calls "delayed sleep phase"). I am most unhappy when I HAVE TO use an alarm clock and break my own patterns. Last night, I naturally went to sleep right before sunrise and I woke up 4 hours later.
To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.
I've never had sleep issues but lately I've been in a bit of a rut. I've always maintained a sleep schedule of going to bed around 00/01hs (not that uncommon in my country) and waking up around 8/9am. However lately I've been arriving VERY tired from work around 19hs.
It's very easy to fall asleep right after work and some days I go to sleep for a few hours but then I wake up super late for dinner around 10/11pm and completely screw my schedule, last night I couldn't sleep until 4am or so.
Most days I don't sleep and power through since I need to buy groceries, cook, do other stuff around the house etc. but even so after dinner around 9/10pm or so I become very active, I don't get sleepy and I can't easily sleep until 2/3am. I've tried with a bit of melatonin, magnesium, etc.
Moreover I've bought an apple watch and discovered I have quite some interruptions during the night, so I'm sleeping around 5-6 hours if I don't sleep at a crazy time, a bit less than what I expected.
Any suggestions? I don't know if taking that nap when I come back from work is helpful or not, usually I don't but I do feel quite tired during that time so I wonder if it's the natural stuff to do to try and go to sleep.
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People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true.
I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months.
Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
Regarding what you said about focus, I think an ADHD diagnosis might help a lot of people here. I suggest asking for a full profile including WAIS testing, which assesses intelligence, because it is the "deficit" between various types of intelligence and attention that matters. Highly intelligent people sometimes are overlooked because their focus, working memory, etc. seem normal or even better than average, but the gap between those and their intellectual capacity creates a lot friction at least for some people.
I recently got diagnosed and am really looking forward to taking a low dose of stimulants in the mornings on work days, I hope it will help me "find a clear path" in my professional life.
My wife was diagnosed within last 2 years and thinks it has changed (and helped) her come to terms with a number of behaviors. And learn how to resolve/improve.
I wonder about me, too. Haven't done it. Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?
>Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?
Hear me out on this, while it often may seem to be the case that it looks like everyone has it, it very well may just be that you unknowingly choose your surrounding in a way that simply everyone around you has it.
Educating yourself on how the brain works, the most important organ, is hugely underrated. Imagine playing a game with only half the screen visible. You wouldn’t see your stats, enemy info, or the map. It would be frustrating to play.
I have strong legs not because that was a goal, but because I fell in love with cycling and never set ANY goals, just enjoyed getting out and riding my serotonin machine.
That might be more sustainable for some people, but if your interests/hobbies are constantly in flux (which mine are as well to an extent), maybe not. I need to find a way to enjoy the process of sleeping more.
The "pinball" concept in "The Soul of a New Machine" rings very true to me -- "The motivational system is akin to the game of pinball, the analogy being that if you win this round, you get to play the game again." -- this is exactly what I feel. But the pinball game is more and more difficult, sometimes too difficult for my fragile mind -- and I still have a day job and a family to take care of.
I like going to gym for past 15 years, it feels great to do some free weights. Not destroy myself, just a good workout. Body adjusting/maintaining not-a-bad-shape is a nice bonus.
I can't control my mood, but when I am positive, I start a new hobby like dancing or playing an instrument, cook healthy, lift, sleep well, study new things, etc. But when I'm depressed, I lose all interest in my life goals, eat junk food, skip exercise, and browse the Internet all night. I can't even enjoy my hobbies anymore.
It's always my mood that comes first, then I can find life goals and naturally do all healthy stuff.
Funnily, when I'm mentally healthy I also visit Hacker News frequently, but when I'm depressed all I do is infinite scrolling Reddit/TikTok.
When I'm IN project, "just do it" works very well. But when I'm BETWEEN projects (this is when I completed a project, and dived into the next project, but found out that I did not enjoy it or got lost or whatever), "just do it" only works when "just do it" -- it doesn't really create a focus needed to move the projects forward. What I got frustrated is that this IN BETWEEN period could take multiple months to get out, which is a super waste of time. If only I could figure out as soon as I completed the previous project, I'd achieve so much more -- you see, for the type of projects I'm working on, I could not afford to wait for several months, or even several weeks -- because this is not my daily job, so if I wait for too long I'm going to lose the knowledge -- it's like muscle training, you can't stop for several weeks and hope muscle retains.
When people claim the contrary it's feels more of a test to see if you can be perceived as responsible enough for your own actions to be worth helping. An individualistic mindset like that isn't very productive at alleviating depression.
> Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
Agree, at least in concept. I'm aware that some of my perceived or real lack of of progress in some life areas is due to mental instability. Various forms of it, some more active than others or present than others.
A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.
But do I like the passion or do I just not have clear goals? What should they be?
In 2022 I was evaluating a senior position at a start-up and a friend asked: "what are your goals, or what are you solving for." My wife asks this question too.
And I tend to stare somewhat blank at the question. As an adult, the goals I'm sure I want have much less to do with career and much more with self. Be happy. Be productive. Be a warm and loving person. Be a responsible, fun, constructive parent.
That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity. And so I've resorted over time to likely unproductive/destructive approaches - more argumentative than necessary, sometimes very responsive, sometimes unresponsive, substances and behavioral things that look like bad habits, addictions, etc.
What do you do to work through these challenges?
Drill down a couple of levels on what it means to you to be happy, productive, warm, and loving. What do an ideal day and week look and feel like? What kind of life would you like your kids to have? Not abstractly. What would their ideal school situation be? How far from school? Any special opportunities like certain clubs, interest in playing an instrument, sports teams? Do you just do weekend warrior stuff, or does being a responsible, fun, constructive parent mean you’re picking them up after school regularly to go make memories?
Let’s say it’s something like the last bit for a moment. “Begin with the end in mind” is one of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and in this case, the end is being a fun parent by going for ice cream or to the park or watch a movie or take guitar lessons together a couple of days a week after school. To make that happen, you’ll need to have flexible work hours and maybe a work location near their ideal school. Do the rare and valuable knowledge and skills that you’ve accumulated allow you do that? If so, great! You’re passionate about being a good parent; you don’t need that from your job. Your job is a means to an end. If the current conditions of your job get in the way of your goal of being a responsible, fun, constructive parent, how could you modify job parameters?
There’s no right answer. There’s your answer. What do you want for your kids? What do you want for you and your wife now and after they’ve left the nest? Walk around in a day, a week of that life in your head. There’s your end. Work backward from there.
> A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.
I think maybe you can move into a managerial position that doesn't need to do much in the trench, or become a trainer in that field.
> That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity.
Yeah. I figured there is a lot of ambiguity in life objectives, and there is no one there to help you. You just have yourself in this game.
> What do you do to work through these challenges?
TBH, I do not know what to do. I have a toolbox for the "down" time, but neither of them really solves it. Sometimes I listen to "Napoleon Hill" episodes to give me some motivation (this one I listened to today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5jAzHpI3w). Sometimes I talked to myself and tried to sort out something. Sometimes I talked to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a list of something.
I kinda think there is no magic pills for such situations and one just has to grit through.
One thing I know helps. Keep talking to people Keep conversation flowing who buddies, connections, or new acquaintances.
So happy to find ways to connect here too if having a sparring moment during these moments helps!
I’ve always felt that there was a big difference between doing something and doing something well. My grandfather, who grew up in an immigrant family on a farm during the Great Depression, used to say “do it well or don’t do it at all.” And it showed in his actions. He would spend enormous amounts of time doing things that just did not seem worth it to me at the time; eg, he obsessed about growing flowers when he had all these other skills that could be making him money. When I finally understood what drove him—that nearly any task can feel worthwhile when you move from simply doing it to doing it as best you can-it changed my relationship with work and other tasks in life. Another commenter here suggests that you should “work to live” and not the other way around, but I don’t really see them as separate. If you have the quality relationship with work in mind when you do it, when you connect it to doing things well, it’s hard to avoid feeling like your actions are also a part of living excellently, and for me at least, that fills me with a tremendous feeling of satisfaction.
For me, I wish I could be like that. I definitely need to work harder to achieve that. I tend to gloss over anything I don't like. Maybe that's why I never learned to grit through in my 40 or so years of life.
The deal I have with myself is that it’s okay to tread water for a while - if you’re tired, if you need a break, if you’re not quite sure where to go next - but you can’t wait too long, because the current will move you wherever it wants. To get where you want, you’re always going to have to start swimming again.
> But since we don't have dedicated day/night humans
Yeah we absolutely do. The night-owls and larks are pretty well established at this point.
Actually now that I think about it, "The Soul of the New Machine" / "Showstopper" both describe this kind of mental (although I'm far from a good engineer) when engineers are done with a project, they get frustrated during the waiting period between two projects. This is pretty similar to what I felt -- whenever I finished a project, I tried to find new projects to work on immediately, not want to lose the momentum, but frustration quickly mounts among 1) I was burnt out temporarily but could not take a break, and 2) It's hard to find projects suitable for my level. It usually took a few months for this frustration to pass, which is frustrating by itself.
I'm not sure which half you are talking about, but I'm really bad at giving advice, especially to people in different situations. I do not have the authority or capacity to help others genuinely.
its actually sad that I can do this in some ways financially but internally I am trapped lol
> I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true
Growing up is realizing how infinitesimally narrow your particular slice of reality is.
What I mean is, the comment you replied to isolated a specific cause and sparked a discussion; your comment, if taken at face value, is thought-terminating. How can we possibly comprehend all causes of complex phenomena before we are allowed to discuss them?
About the universally true thing, I understood it as whether people that's unhappy with life generally have trouble sleeping, not whether everyone that have trouble sleeping is unhappy with life. Still probably not an universal but is more reasonable sounding
This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane....
BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them.
You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them.
I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause.
One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse.
I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go.
It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL.
Eat right, kids; eat well or be cursed for life!
The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day.
I genuinely have to revisit old information.
A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week!
When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock.
This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested.
Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason.
The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight.
Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
In any event, I agree with something implicit in the article, namely that most people have a degree of this, but the severity is variable. Mine has been fairly extreme, and while diagnosis enables disability accommodations, it is very fraught navigating most workplaces with this particular disability and you are essentially forced to choose between having any kind of upward mobility and getting enough sleep at night.
Thankfully the past two years or so I've been getting much more sleep since optimizing more for that. But anyway, if you are navigating sleep challenges you should get a sleep study, sure, but also be aware that your local sleep clinic is in all likelihood only nominally a sleep clinic. That is, it does not know how to diagnose and treat more complex sleep issues and probably doesn't want to.
Tried all kinds of sleep medication, but by now I've forgotten what it's like to not be half-asleep and unable to concentrate throughout the day (with loud tinnitus and a soupy feel in the brain to boot). Really sucks out any and all enjoyment from life, I can't even find the energy to watch TV shows anymore, let alone read books. I haven't learned anything fundamentally new at work for years too (inertia helps with daily routine).
It seems like we're all just looking at the title and talking about our sleep habits.
I have it. What I've learned from my doc (a researcher in the field):
It's primarily a specific genetic mutation that affects many of they body's cyclic timers, but relevant here is that the circadian feedback loop is no longer able to lock to a 24 hour day/night cycle at all. The timer technically works. You're perfectly sensitive to light/dark, but you're hitting a PLL with inputs faster than its ability to make meaningful adjustments. That's not the case with DSPS.
Sleep apnea diagnosis is relevant here, it also breaks the breathing reflex timer. Imagine finding out at age 40 that you've not, in fact, slept more than a few minutes at a time your entire life, because you wake up just enough to take a breath every 3 minutes or so when a secondary suffocation reflex goes off.
To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.
It's very easy to fall asleep right after work and some days I go to sleep for a few hours but then I wake up super late for dinner around 10/11pm and completely screw my schedule, last night I couldn't sleep until 4am or so.
Most days I don't sleep and power through since I need to buy groceries, cook, do other stuff around the house etc. but even so after dinner around 9/10pm or so I become very active, I don't get sleepy and I can't easily sleep until 2/3am. I've tried with a bit of melatonin, magnesium, etc.
Moreover I've bought an apple watch and discovered I have quite some interruptions during the night, so I'm sleeping around 5-6 hours if I don't sleep at a crazy time, a bit less than what I expected.
Any suggestions? I don't know if taking that nap when I come back from work is helpful or not, usually I don't but I do feel quite tired during that time so I wonder if it's the natural stuff to do to try and go to sleep.
> Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock.
If I did that I would go to bed a 5 in the morning and wake up at 2pm, sir.
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 - Oct 2020 (121 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 - Aug 2019 (4 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 - Oct 2018 (254 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 - Dec 2015 (27 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 - Oct 2015 (1 comment)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 - Feb 2013 (121 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 - March 2010 (61 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 - March 2008 (1 comment)